View source for Talk:Baal Shem Tov

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== Wrong Image ==

It has become widely known recently that it is a common misconception of the photo being of the Baal Shem Tov. Rather, it is said to be of a Dutch Kabbalist who was called Israel Baal Shem (not to be confused with Israel Baal Shem Tov). If anyone has any sources on that, please post. 

:Take this to the image's talk page. [[User:220.233.48.200|220.233.48.200]] 17:20, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, its Hayyim Shmuel Yaakov Falk, who was called the Baal Shem of London.
<span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/151.202.46.172|151.202.46.172]] ([[User talk:151.202.46.172|talk]]) 22:35, 17/Mar/06</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP -->

Source: Jewish Encyclopedia, under Falk.

Jewish Enlightenment in An English Key by David B. Ruderman

see http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/titles/6953.html

and 

http://onthemainline.blogspot.com/2006/03/baal-shem-tov.html
<span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.237.223.201|68.237.223.201]] ([[User talk:68.237.223.201|talk]]) 22:34, 18/July/06</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP -->

:All this is correct. I can vouch for these facts. No known contemporary image exists of the Baal Shem Tov, other then fanciful modern images. In fact there are very few images that exist of any of the rabbis of this era, unless something weird happened to them. For instance, [[Shneur Zalman of Liadi]] was imprisoned by the Tsar as a political prisoner and a court portrait was taken of him. No such thing happened to the Baal Shem Tov. Unfortunately, this page won't get an "A" rating because of circumstances of history.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 21:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
:Thanks, {{IPuser|68.237.223.201}}. I inserted the link to onthemainline into the article. <big>[[User:-- -- --|'''--''']] [[User talk:-- -- --|'''--''']] [[Special:Contributions/-- -- --|'''--''']]</big> 02:44, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I am completely in support of removing this image from this page since it unfortunately serves to re-enforce the error when the page link is syndicated across social media with only the page name and the image (without caveat) indicated. [[User:Aharonium|Aharonium]] ([[User talk:Aharonium|talk]]) 21:42, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

==Proposing rewording==

<blockquote>Many of his disciples believe that he comes from the Davidic line tracing its lineage to the royal house of King David, and by extension with the institution of the Jewish Messiah.</blockquote>

To

<blockquote>It is claimed he comes from a Davidic line tracing its lineage to the royal house of King David, it is unknown if this is true as he did not have the certificate that King David gave for all of descendants, but it was known that over the generations many families lost their's in fires, wars and the like.</blockquote>

If anyone can come up with a slight better wording, please share. If not with the possiblity of slight editing this version will go up in 48 hours. [[User:220.233.48.200|220.233.48.200]] 17:21, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

:The reason why changed the "many of his disciples beleive" part saying his disciples is not valid. As it was his family which claims it. [[User:220.233.48.200|220.233.48.200]] 17:24, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

==Pantheism==

The Besht advocated panentheism, not pantheism. I am removing the catagorization. [[User:PhatJew|PhatJew]] 22:44, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely right. Most Mystics do... Its just panentheism is more of a mouthful and lesser known as a concept than pantheism... Good edit! [[User:ThePeg|ThePeg]] ([[User talk:ThePeg|talk]]) 01:01, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

== The Baal Shem Tov's Audience ==

I’ve changed the line “and the people, mostly from the lower classes, came to listen to him” to “and people, mostly from the spiritual elite, came to listen to him.” Although the jury is still out on exactly who made up the Baal Shem Tov’s audience it appears that his teachings were addressed to the spiritual elite and did not necessarily include the masses. It is true that in general his teachings can be read as inclusive but there are a number of indications that this was not his intention. See especially his epistle where the Baal Shem Tov is comforted that it will be possible for others to reach his level of spirituality. The term he uses is “Biney Gili” which usually means, especially as it is used here, my “colleagues”, “contemporaries” or “peers” which would indicate that his target audience was made up of people of spiritual stature. But as I mentioned the issue is still unclear in the scholarship literature. In my opinion the strongest evidence in support of this thesis is the nature of the content of the Baal Shem Tov’s teachings. It would be hard to imagine the illiterate masses understanding the import of most of them.
<span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/207.251.87.194|207.251.87.194]] ([[User talk:207.251.87.194|talk]]) 15:22, 24/Aug/06</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP -->

== vice-king ==

In the sentence ''king gave him the daughter of the vice-king'', what is a vice-king? If no-one has a satisfactory explanation, this should be deleted.   [[User:Redaktor|Redaktor]] 23:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm guessing the more appropriate term would be "Viceroy" - "A man who is the governor of a country, province, or colony, ruling as the representative of a sovereign".[[User:76.167.119.175|76.167.119.175]] 06:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

== vandalism, or bias? ==

Unless I'm missing some context, the last line of the section on his miracles seems oddly out of place:

"Of course this story must be dismissed as falsehood because the idea of a man god is totally rejected by Judaism. Indeed, all who are of rationality deny this utter lie."

I could understand a commentary on the mismatch between a man-god and these miracles, but "utter lie" seems a bit much. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Zipwow|Zipwow]] ([[User talk:Zipwow|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Zipwow|contribs]]) 00:56, 2 February 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

== Lineage Charts ==

Please don't shoot the messenger! I'm sure that dozens of people will want to change things on these charts, from spellings, to links. But hey, I did my best and I thought it was worthwhile to add this.
--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 18:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
:It is not clear why Klezmer wishes to remove the link to the [[Medzhibozh (Hasidic dynasty)]] page. It appears to me that the target page does refer to the descendants of the Baal Shem Tov, which makes it  a legitimate link from this page.. Rather than continue the edit war, can we please leave the link for the time being and hold the debate in the proper place, here on the talk page? That will allow all arguments to be considered, and other editors to contribute if they wish.--[[User:Redaktor|Redaktor]] 09:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
::Please bring your discussion to [[Talk:List of Hasidic dynasties#Request for Comment: Adding Hasidic dynasties]] --[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 10:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

== Medzhybizh in Lithuania? ==

I have tagged the phrase "Medzhybizh, which had once been part of Lithuania", as I can find no evidence that Medzhybizh was indeed ever included in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. if anyone has a reference, please add it in.--[[User:Redaktor|Redaktor]] 17:07, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

:That's a correct statement. You need to read up a little bit more on the history of this region. It was part of the [[Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth]]. The two nations were essentially a democratic monarchy that shared royalty and nobles. See [[Poland]]. This happened in the [[Union of Lublin]] in 1569.

:Medzhibozh was territorially part of [[Podolia]] Province. It was Podolia's oldest and most important town until Tsarist times. See [[Medzhibozh]]. Podolia is physically located in what is today [[Ukraine]] (actually now split between Khmelnitsky and Vinnitsa Oblasti). Podolia was "owned" first by the [[Kievan Rus]] until about 1360 when it passed into the hands of the [[Lithuanians]] after the Rus were severely weakened by [[Tatar]] raids. Then in 1569 Poland and Lithuania merged. Polish noble families ended up owning Podolia after they wrested control back from a brief period of [[Turkish]] occupation in the late 1600s. It remained in Polish hands until the [[Second Partition of Poland]] in 1792 when it became part of [[Tsarist Russia]].

:During the Baal Shem Tov's era, it was essentially part of Poland. The Baal Shem Tov was born in Turkish-occupied Podolia. I think the backdrop of history is important to the development of chasidism. Essentially, the Baal Shem Tov's generation was the first generation to live in relative peace after the 17th century upheavals. There was an economic boom going on and Medzhibozh was right in the heart of it as one of Podolia's largest towns and a jewel in the estate of the Polish lords. --[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 06:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

::Thank you for the history lesson. I never queried Medzhybizh being part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. I merely wanted a reference to confirm that it actually was in the Grand Duchy of  Lithuania. I have now found a reference and added it to the article.--[[User:Redaktor|Redaktor]] 15:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

==Yisro'el der toita ?==
Hi Klezmer. For your knowledge Yisroel the son of Feiga was indeed called ''"Der toita"''. A story is told why he was called ''"der toita"''. The story goes something like this that the Baal Shem Tov instructed that no one should give a name after him. Feiga did, and this Yisroel died at age seven. His mother Feiga placed his corpse in the Ohel of the Baal Shem Tov, saying in anguish take him he is yours, and in the morning he was found alive. Since then he was always pale ''"blass"'' hence ''"der toita"''. Even if the story isn't true it still wouldn't change the fact that he was called ''"Yisroo'el der toita"''. [[User:Itzse|Itzse]] 20:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

:Everything I've seen calls him "Yisroel Meis". Even his gravestone says this. He lived to be over a hundred years old and there's a story behind him that I won't get into here. --[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 19:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

::By seen, I take it that you saw it in books; and by that I take it that you saw it in books in Hebrew. But FYI more has been written in the Yiddish language ''"Mama Loshen"'' about Chasidus then in the Hebrew language; don't forget your grandmother didn't speak Hebrew.

::''"She'al Ovicho Vayegeidcho"'' (Ask your father and he'll tell you) ''"Zekainecho veyoimri loch"'' (Ask your elders and they will tell you) that your great great ... grandmother called him ''"Yisroel der toita"''. [[User:Itzse|Itzse]] 20:14, 9 March 2007 (UTC) 

:::I'm looking at Rechtman, 1958, ''Yidishe etnografye un folklor'', YIVO, Buenos Aries. This source is written in Yiddish - "Yisroel Meis". (however you want to spell it in English). Rechtman was an on-the-ground interviewer circa 1914. I'm betting that the words were interchangable in the Yiddish dialect spoken around Medzhibozh and it was completely acceptable and understandable. Maybe in some other regions, they spoke a more formal Yiddish - and that's where your stories are from. Rechtman records a similar story to the above, with slight variations that we won't go into here. The gravestone in the Medzhibozh Cemetery translates to (from Yiddish) "Here Lies Rabbi Israel Meis who died ''(toit)'' while still alive." --[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 20:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)    

I think "Zevi" is an incorrect spelling of Tze-vi because at first glance I thought that his name was Zev (''Volf''); therefore I think Zvi or Tzvi is more appropriate. [[User:Itzse|Itzse]] 20:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

:Agreed.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 19:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

As to the dates; it is a big question if it belongs here in the first place; since Reb Boruch of Mezhbizh takes a prominent place in an article on [[Medzhibozh (Hasidic dynasty)|Medzhibozh]] and can be looked up there. But it is quite understandable that to understand things in context the dates can be given here too. But why the redundancy? a few lines above it already gives you the dates. As a general rule "[[Links]]" are given only once in an article or paragraph and usually on the first encounter; so why should dates be any different? Please explain [[User:Itzse|Itzse]] 19:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

:I kinda like having the dates in the family tree. They are all in one place that way.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 19:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

::You got to take into consideration that for others it's annoying; especially for us perfectionists. 

::Have a Gut Shabbos; and I hope you can resolve your dispute with ChosidFromBirth between yourselves; or call in someone to mediate. [[User:Itzse|Itzse]] 20:14, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

:::Thanks. Shabbat Shalom. --[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 20:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

== Edit wars ==

The edit wars which have taken place on this page recently are unseemly and unnecessary ([[WP:CON]]). Please use '''this''' talk page to resolve disputes, rather than engaging in multiple to-and-fro reverts.--[[User:Redaktor|Redaktor]] 13:27, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Redaktor is right -- both this page and the List of Hasidic dynasties -- please, Klezmer, dont ignore other people's opinions and facts.  We went through this before and I finally just gave up.  I didn't even bother to get involved in the dispute you had with Itzse even though I think that calling R' Hershel a comedian is insulting and not accurate, and relying on some exploration from 1914 to charge Boruch of Medzhibozh with crazy claims isn't appropriate or correct.

On the current issue, how can you possibly put Boruch in the Pinchos of Koritz line and not in the line of his own grandfather -- yes, these are not necessarily blood relationships in this area and the other page, but Boruch was his grandfather's prodigy, Pinchas of Koritz said the Baal Shem Tov designated Boruch as his successor and asked Pinchas to tutor him, and in terms of spiritual legacy (which is the title here) Boruch clearly declared he was following his grandfather and wasn't a hassid or real student or follower of anyone else, and it says in Degel Machne Ephraim that it was Boruch who would be asked what the Baal Shem Tov's hanhogos and minhogim were.  Then there are all the stories about Boruch as a child being an ilui and living under the Baal Shem's direction.  I just don't see how you can put him under Pinchos of Koritz or anyone else except the Baal Shem Tov.  

You also seem committed to eliminating the Medzhiboz dynasty and links and references in other articles as much as you can.  That's your own point of view, going back to your think about the Bicks, but it's not accurate or factual. Boruch should be under the Baal Shem Tov and the reference to the Medzhibozh dynasty should be put back.  --[[User:ChosidFrumBirth|ChosidFrumBirth]] 14:50, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm committed only to the ''facts'' and to wiki's policy of ''neutrality''. Bottom line is that the chart in question is a teacher-student relationship chart. The chart is not about blood relationships. R. Boruch was the student of R. Pinchas until he became the rebbe of Tulchin. Documents indicate that the apprenticeship lasted some 15 years. R. Boruch was only 7 when his grandfather, the Baal Shem Tov died. It would be hard to make a case that the main teacher-student relationship was between the Besht and him. Especially, when you consider that his formative years of age 7 through about age 22 was spent with R. Pinchas, a key disciple of his grandfather. And if you make the claim that most Chasidim have a direct teacher-student relationship with the Besht, that's fine except that's not what this chart is all about. The reason I can make that statement is that ''I'' am the one who devised this chart originally. It is ''my'' definition of teacher-student that seems to be in question here. I'm the one who added here in wiki.

It would be interesting to know why ChosidFrumBirth is so quick on the trigger finger. And why he is so nasty and rude to me. I've added a lot of new (heavily referenced) material here in wiki, but for the life of me I can't find very much new material that he has ever added. Instead, he seems to want to criticize other's work but can't seem to provide independent references for his own extreme positions.

I submit to ChosidFrumBirth: why doesn't he provide indisputable proof that R. Boruch's major teacher-student relationship was only with his grandfather. Indisputable means published sources, not just his opinion. Otherwise, leave it alone if he doesn't have proof. I personally believe it should remain how I originally entered it into ''my'' chart that I developed from numerous independent sources. --[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 18:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)



I am not being nasty or rude to you.  Its just frustrating for you to insist on having your version and only your version of the "truth" without regard to what other people know.  For a long time now you just revert anyone else's edits that you don't agree with and ignore reason and other people's opinions unless it meets with your criteria of what is "proof"-- that's rude and nasty.

Indisputable proof?  If everything required that the books and encyclopedias would be almost empty.  And you call what you've done indisputable proof?  Not everything can be scientifically proven by your crieteria, and not everything is documented and published, and not everything that you bring down as documented and published is necessarily accurate, but you insist on reverting over and over and ignoring everyone else.
Credibility here doesn't depend upon how much new material I've added, I'm interested in reading and I "edit" mainly to correct what I know to be wrong, and not everything you added is factual just because it's written somewhere.  There is more to history than just what researchers claim to know or find, particularly in hassidic circles where so much has been oral for generations.

I understand why you want to keep exclusive rights to edits on what you call "your" chart, and that's your opinion and bias, and you shouldn't just ignore everyone else.  Oral tradition has credibility too -- ask any historian or reasearcher.

As for this teacher-student thing you're hung up on, almost every rebbe alive today was tutored or had a teacher other than his own father or grandfather, but that doesn't change what "spiritual legacy" they should belong to.  Yes, Boruch was only 7, but for example the Belzer Rebbe of today was also just 9 when his uncle the previous Belzer Rebbe died and he was picked to succeed his uncle.  His teacher for the next ten years until he became rebbe was Chaim Beryl, a student of his uncle and grandfather, so does that mean the Belzer should be put under Chaim Beryl and not under Belz and his own uncle and grandfather?  Ridiculous.  It's the same thing here, Boruch was an ilui, received a lot of the Baal Shem's teachings, and then afterwards Pinchos of Koretz was the Baal Shem Tov's appointed caretaker for Boruch who just said over to Boruch what the Baal Shem had taught.  Boruch followed the "spiritual legacy" of his grandfather not of Pinchos of Koritz, and if you can't see that, then I give up, do what you want and let wikipedia suffer for it.  If you want to be one-sided and close-minded then I really don't care. --[[User:ChosidFrumBirth|ChosidFrumBirth]] 02:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

And then of course many of the other listings have links to the dynasties, but for some reason you also continue to revert and eliminate the Medzhibozh dynasty under Boruch -- another bias of yours. --[[User:ChosidFrumBirth|ChosidFrumBirth]] 03:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

== Spiritual legacy ==

I don't really understand the section 'Spiritual legacy'. Yes, by all means list the disciples of the Baal Shem Tov. But anything else beongs in another article.--[[User:Redaktor|Redaktor]] 22:51, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

:I respectfully disagree. The Baal Shem Tov spawned a new movement... a fundamental framework for a new type of Judaism. The 'Spiritual Legacy' shows how this happened. It's a great tool in the linkage-dependent world of wiki. It makes this article more valuable. It's needed in an article about the Baal Shem Tov to directly connect him with the other famous Chasidim (which we've got wiki articles about). Moreover, it shows the direct connection historically to the modern day. A chart like this is necessary for these multiple purposes.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 10:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

== Baal Shem Tov and the Frankists ==

I dispute the following item in the article: "In fact, Besht took sides with the Talmudists in the disputes with Frankists (Jacob Frank's followers) and was even one of the three delegates of the Talmudists to a disputation between the two parties held at Lemberg in 1759."

This statement is probably based on a forgery, ''Maaseh Norah bePodolia'' that places the Besht at the 1759 Lviv (Lemberg) disputation with the Frankists. M. Balaban, ''On the History of the Frankist Movement'', v. 2, 1935, p. 295-311 proved that the Besht was not present. We have the minutes and attendees from these disputations, and the Besht was not listed. This event occured just a few months before his death.

I'm going to delete the end of this sentence starting "...and was even..." unless anyone has other evidence to the contrary. I'm not even sure the first part of the sentence can be proven, but I'll leave it.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 16:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's a less obscure reference that says the same thing: G. Scholem, ''Kabbalah'', {{ISBN|0-452-01007-1}}, 1978, p. 298. "The tradition which sprang up in popular accounts circulating years later that Israel b. Eliezar Ba'al Shem Tov, the founder of Hasidism, was also a participant, ''has no historical foundation.''" (italics are mine). Scholem further quotes various sources, including the Catholic Church and the Frankists themselves who documented the meeting.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 18:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


Okay, wait, this is really cryptic and confusing to me:
:''The antagonism between Talmudism and Hasidism was apparent to the representatives of each at Besht's first appearance; but the open breach did not come about until later. In fact, Besht took sides with the Talmudists in the disputes with Frankists (Jacob Frank's followers). '''It was only in keeping with Besht's character that he felt keenly upon the acceptance of baptism by the Frankists''', for it is related that he said: "As long as a diseased limb is connected with the body, there is hope that it may be saved; but, once amputated, it is gone, and there is no hope." The excitement consequent upon the Frankist movement undermined his health, and he died shortly after the conversion of many Frankists to Christianity.''
So.... Rabbi Baal Shem Tov was '''baptised''' by a Jewish sect known as the Frankists (Jews baptise??) and then he went on to convert members of that sect to Christianity?? And that amputation reference- What does that mean? Could we try to remember that this is an encyclopedia, and it should read like one, and not like some mystical Kabbalistic text? Oh, and what were the Talmudists and Hassids antagonized about? Philosophical questions? - [[User:Eric Shalov|Eric]] 06:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

:No, not at all. It was the Frankists versus the Talmudists. Besht was on the side of the Talmudists since the schism between the Talmudism and Hasidism happened later. If you follow the wiki link to the [[Jacob Frank|Frankists]], you will find that the Frankist lost the battle and ''they'' converted to Christianity. Not the Talmudists/Hasids/Besht. If it is unclear to you, rewrite this section to better explain it.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 13:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

::Done. I hope I didn't butcher it too much, but hopefully it'll make sense to the uninitiated now. שָׁלוֹם - [[User:Eric Shalov|Eric]] 19:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Redaktor, there's not a single section in this article that in-an-of-itself is referenced! References to this specific section are contained right here in this talk section. Are you expecting someone to transfer them over to the main article? If so, then there's a lot of work to do on other parts of this article because it is unclear about the references for those, as well.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 14:12, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

:I tagged a passage which makes no sense. Unless someone is willing to provide a source for it, I shall delete it. --[[User:Redaktor|Redaktor]] 22:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

::See G. Scholem, ''Kabbalah'', {{ISBN|0-452-01007-1}}, 1978, p. 287-309. Scholem devotes an entire chapter on this subject (Part II, Chapter 3). That should be a sufficient reference, and the book is widely available and widely quoted.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 03:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Part of this section currently reads:
:It was only in keeping with Besht's character that he welcomed baptism by the Frankists as an end to its threat to mainstream Judaism of the day, for it is related that he said: "As long as a diseased limb is connected with the body, there is hope that it may be saved; but, once amputated, it is gone, and there is no hope." :

Doesn't the quote seems to completely contradict the statement that introduces it?  Besht seems to be saying that as long as the Frankists remained Jews, they might have been convinced of the error of their ways, but with their conversion they were lost forever.  Wouldn't "regretted" or "mourned" be a better description of his reaction than "welcomed"?  

Could someone more familiar with this edit to make it clearer? - [[User:Eleanorquantifier|Eleanorquantifier]] ([[User talk:Eleanorquantifier|talk]]) 21:21, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
:Good point. I can see the contradiction. Though, on the face of it, it can also make perfect sense. The quote from the Besht is true and can be verified. The real question is ''what does he mean by it?'' Was the Besht hoping he could change the ways of the Frankists back to Talmudic Judaism? Once they Baptized themselves, did he consider them lost forever (as an amputated limb)? Or maybe he considered them gone, therefore he rejoiced that there was no longer a problem? I can see where he might "welcome" (maybe "was relieved" is a better phrase?) the loss of the Frankists from Judaism. I don't have a good answer. If you want to reword, feel free. --[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] ([[User talk:Klezmer|talk]]) 05:33, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

== Israel Shem Tov ==

At p. 52 ('07 Penguin paperback) of ''[[Breaking the Spell]]'', [[Daniel Dennett]] purports to quote [[Eli Wiesel]] as starting "[[Eli Wiesel#Quotations|God made Man because He loves Stories]]" (in "[[The Gates of the Forest]]") thus:
: When the founder of [[Hasidic]] Judaism, the great Rabbi [[Israel Shem Tov]], saw ..."
I've created the Rdr to this talk page's accompanying article, but someone who can do so intelligently should probably comment on that usage. (E.g., does it reflect a preference on Wiesel's (or Dennett's) part for avoiding the more familiar title?) <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Jerzy|Jerzy]] ([[User talk:Jerzy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jerzy|contribs]]) 02:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

== Mezhbizh (Hasidic dynasty) at Mediation Cabal ==

A long-simmering editorial dispute between {{User|Klezmer}} and {{User|ChosidFrumBirth}} over how to deal with information about certain [[Hasidic Judaism|Hasidic]] topics has reached the [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal]]. Please see and provide any helpful input at [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-04-29 Mezhbizh (Hasidic dynasty)]]. Thank you, [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] 15:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

== baal shem tov- not a talmid chacham? cite sources please! ==

according to the book "Chasidic Masters" by R' Aryeh Kaplan, the baal shem tov was a talmid chacham and he even sites proof of it from his teachings... At first the baal shem tov was hidden and acted as a layman so that he may go unnoticed and delve into kabbalistic teachings, since at the time it was forbidden due to the uproar caused by shabtai tzvi... once he felt that it was necessary for him to share his teaching than he disclosed his knowledge in torah... it would be interesting and quite significant for you to cite an authoritative source proving that the baal shem tov was in fact an ingnoramous.
<span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/63.28.141.125|63.28.141.125]] ([[User talk:63.28.141.125|talk]]) 17/May/07</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP -->

:For all those that really want to know, let me give you some food for thought.

:We know very little about the Baal Shem Tov; we know even less about his successor the Magid of Mezritch. Why this is so? I don't know; the best I can do is speculate. But those that are interested in facts, these are the historical facts:

:The Baal Shem had numerous disciples; that is undisputable. Many of the Baal Shem Tov’s disciples quote what they ''heard'' from him. So a smart alack might say that ok, he new ''Chumish'' and that's all. So let me tell you; it's very difficult to prove a negative, and in this case it's very difficult to prove a positive. But it can be proven by association that many of the Baal Shem Tov's disciples were in by themselves accomplished great men. Does anybody in their right mind think that he could have fooled so many, including the non-Chasidic ''Meir Nesivim''? ''The world says'' that nobody can prove that Rabbi [[Nathan Adler]] was a ''Talmid Chochom'' but if he had a ''talmid'' like the [[Chasam Sofer]] then that should be ample proof that he was indeed a ''talmid chochom''. 

:If that is not enough, then prove to me that ''Moshe Rabeinu'' was a ''talmid chochom''; after all; all that he left us is a ''Chumish''! [[User:Itzse|Itzse]] 15:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

== Requested move ==

The title of this article is long and unwieldy. It should be moved back to its original title [[Baal Shem Tov]], in my opinion. Please comment.--[[User:DLand|DLand]][[User talk:DLand|<sup style="color:green;"><small>TALK</small></sup>]] 13:51, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

:There is something to be said for this. --[[User:Redaktor|Redaktor]] 22:16, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

:I agree.  He was known as Baal Shem Tov and that's a much more accurate and better title than Yisroel ben Eliezer. --[[User:ChosidFrumBirth|ChosidFrumBirth]] 04:21, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::Certainly the general reader will recognize [[Baal Shem Tov]] more readily than [[Yisroel ben Eliezer]], which is the reason for which we pick article names. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 02:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

:Agree. Those that know that his name was Yisroel ben Eliezer, call him the "Baal Shem Tov"; those that have never heard his real name know him as the "Baal Shem Tov" or in short "[[Besht]]". Either way Google gets its most hits on people searching for "Baal Shem Tov". [[User:Itzse|Itzse]] 22:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

== Spiritual legacy dispute ==

I just turned the long "spiritual legacy" tree into a short paragraph listing the Baal Shem Tov's direct students. I think that anything more elaborate than that is beyond the scope of this article, and is more relevant to an article on [[Hasidic Judaism]] in general (though I don't necessarily think it belongs there either). This hopefully should solve the dispute regarding R. Baruch - there is little dispute that, for at least the first seven years of his life, R. Baruch was taught by the Baal Shem Tov. If an editor wishes to dispute this, a referenced sentence can be added to indicate that there are those who believe that the two never met (or whatever the argument might be, I don't really know) - rather than deleting the current content.
<span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding comment was added by {{User|DLand}}, 15:41, 11/July/07.</span>
:I support the idea of deleting the Spiritual Legacy chart. I'm the one who originally wrote it and included it in the article, but it is way too controversial to keep. On May 1 and again on May 21 I proposed it be deleted, but I was over-ruled by a number of people. I applaud you, DLand, as I'm not so sure deleting it is going to be a popular move. More power to you if you can pull it off!--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 05:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

:Regarding R. Baruch being taught by the Baal Shem Tov, I'm more convinced then ever that this was simply not true. And the sources clearly back me up. All the sources say that R. Pinchas was R. Boruch's mentor, tutor, teacher. They all say identically the same thing, they don't conflict in this regard. These sources are well known: Eli Weisel - ''Four Hasidic Masters'' {{ISBN|0268009473}}, Eli Weisel - ''Souls on Fire'' {{ISBN|0-671-44171-X}}, Avraham Finkel - ''Great Chasidic Masters'' {{ISBN|1-56821-939-3}}, Tzvi Rabinowicz - ''The Encyclopedia of Hasidism'' {{ISBN|1-56821-123-6}}, and many others. Most sources claim that R. Boruch was 7 years old when the Baal Shem Tov died. Weisel claims that R. Boruch was only 3 when the Baal Shem Tov died (''Souls on Fire'' pg. 83). There's considerable doubt that the two ever even met. Rabinowicz (pg. 37) claims that from infant to when the Baal Shem Tov died, Boruch was retained in Dov Ber's court. It is recorded (on pg. 92) that Dov Ber only met the Baal Shem Tov twice but not during Boruch's lifetime. That means that (except possibly as an infant), Boruch didn't meet his famous grandfather in person. Therefore, he could not have possibly been taught by him. Weisel says something very similar and supports the doubt that the two met.  Boruch was under R. Pinchas' tutorlage for over 15 years after the Baal Shem Tov's death, though. There's no doubt that later in life, Boruch claims (maybe "flaunts" is a better term) the legacy of his grandfather. But that doesn't mean he was taught directly by the Baal Shem Tov.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 05:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC) 

:For this reason, I don't believe the last line of your new paragraph is supported by the sources: "The Baal Shem Tov imparted his '''teachings''' to '''his students'''...include[ing]...the Baal Shem Tov's grandson, Boruch of Medzhybizh (1757-1811)." It cannot be demonstrated by any source I have seen where the Baal Shem Tov specifically '''taught''' Boruch as his '''student''' while he was still alive. That part needs to be deleted, or the paragraph needs to be reworded somehow to properly reflect the sources.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 05:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC)  

:::I really can't believe what's going on here.  This is just dead wrong, as anyone even slightly familiar with the Baal Shem Tov knows without question.  Claiming that Baruch never even met his grandfather is sheer nonsense, and the one source you cite for that, Rabinowitz, who is wrong on a lot of other things throughout his "encyclopedia", not only doesn't prove anything but instead just calls that source even more into question.  Klezmer starts with two unrelated questionable "facts" in the first place and then with dubious logic puts them together, adds an assumption, and then concludes that Baruch never met his grandfather?  Absurd.  Citing Wiesel that Baruch was only 3 when the Besht died also doesn't prove anything, since every one else said 7, Wiesel is the only one that said 3 and he wasn't being careful because he wrote a story-telling type book, not a researched historical documentary to be relied on for its facts.
:::<span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding comment was added by {{User|ChosidFrumBirth}}, 04:20, 15/July/07.</span>

::::Here we go again... On the one hand, ChosidFrumBirth evaluates which sources are "right" or "wrong". But when I did this previously in the mediation, I was scolded for it. I learned my lesson, did ChosidFrumBirth? If ChosidFrumBirth doesn't remember the conclusion of these source-validity questions, the answer is very simple. "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not '''truth'''" See [[WP:V]]. I provided verifiable sources above. Whether one agrees or not with Weisel or Rabinowicz, it doesn't matter. I simply cite their positions.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 13:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::Right, here we go again.  You cite their positions and reject anything else.  Klezmer, at the end of the day you rejected mediation, as well as every other editor's suggestions and just kept reverting without any discussion.  Second, I already provided sources, you just don't like them because they're not modern "scholarship": Mekor Baruch, Degel Machne Ephraim, Professor Alfasi, Imrei Pinchas, Shivchei HaBesht, and Treasury of Chassidic Tales, all support the fact that Baruch was at his grandfather's side his entire life.  I'm not doing this anymore, so if you want to just have your version of the "truth" then just go ahead.  I give up. --[[User:ChosidFrumBirth|ChosidFrumBirth]] 18:05, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

::::::Okay, ChosidFrumBirth, find me a specific reference. You probably can't, because I can't find a single verifiable source that says that Boruch was taught specifically by the Baal Shem Tov during his lifetime. I've gone ahead and checked each and every one of these so-called sources. Unless I'm missing something, none of these ever say this. Some that you provide above are just thrown out for no apparent reason. For instance, Shivchei HaBesht only mentions Boruch twice - and just as an afterthought that he was born, nothing else (Tales 196 and 222, pgs 26a and 31a). I'm glad you're finally giving up, because the verifiable evidence ([[WP:V]]) apparently doesn't exist.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 18:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:::On the other hand, all the traditional sources, old and new, say that Baruch grew up for the first seven years of his life on the Baal Shem Tov's knee, tutored by him, mentored by him, raised by him, nurtured by him, and quoting Pinchas and Yosef of Polonnye chose Baruch as his successor as it says in Mekor Boruch.  Udl, Baruch's mother, was constantly present by the Baal Shem Tov's side (and that's even in Wiesel too), and wasn't going to send her precious Baruch (also in Wiesel) off to Mezritch at birth.  That's sheer nonsense.
:::<span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding comment was added by {{User|ChosidFrumBirth}}, 04:20, 15/July/07.</span>

::::Verifiable source please? Nobody's arguing about his mother Udl, just about Boruch. You're leaping to conclusions here, which is a wiki no-no. See [[WP:NOR]]. Please provide a verifiable source that says specifically that Boruch was taught directly by the Baal Shem Tov while the latter was still alive.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 13:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::As above, all of the seforim I referred to, plus Professor Alfasi and Treasury of Chassidic Tales, all say so.  I'm not going to waste time going to the library to give you page numbers or ISBN numbers that these work don't have, because you'll just say they're not reliable or they lie, just like you did the last time when you challenged for sources and then refused to acknowledge the sources that were provided.  Again, I give up.  Do whatever you want.  I thought Wiki was a place where the truth comes out, but Klezmer obviously has some agenda.  In fact '''he''' was the one who suggested that if Baruch had to be included he'd rather delete the whole chart.  Now he's not even satisfied to have one little mention of Baruch at the very end that has him connected in anyway to his grandfather.  I don't have any personal interest in these articles so all of this just isn't worth my time, so go ahead with your agenda. --[[User:ChosidFrumBirth|ChosidFrumBirth]] 18:05, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

::::::You're simply going to have to prove it. Otherwise, it is not a verifiable source ([[WP:V]]). I've checked every reference you provided and I can't find where they ever say that the Baal Shem Tov taught Baruch while still alive. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 18:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Degel Machne Ephraim, Baruch's older brother, says he always asked Baruch when he had any question about their grandfather's practices. Ephraim was older than Baruch, yet he asks his younger brother about their grandfather?  That would only be if it was accepted fact that Baruch was closest to the Besht.
:::<span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding comment was added by {{User|ChosidFrumBirth}}, 04:20, 15/July/07.</span>

::::But that is jumping to a conclusion again - "original research", again something I was scolded for previously as against Wiki policy, but ChosidFrumBirth is doing it himself here. See [[WP:NOR]]--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 13:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::It is not "original research" or jumping to conclusion -- the Sefer itself says "I" asked my little brother about what our grandfather's shitah was.  Why didn't he ask Pinchas or Dov Ber or somebody else?  There is no other conclusion. 
:::::<small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:ChosidFrumBirth|ChosidFrumBirth]] ([[User talk:ChosidFrumBirth|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ChosidFrumBirth|contribs]]) 18:05, 15/July/07</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

:::Mekor Boruch talks about how close the Baal Shem Tov was with his grandson Baruch who was his favorite.  Imrei Pinchas, Professor Alfasi, Shivchei HaBesht, A Treasury of Chassidic Tales, and lots of others have hundreds of stories about the Baal Shem Tov and his grandson Baruch being together, learning together, even one about how one hasid asked the Baal Shem Tov a question and Baruch was there and answered and on and on.
:::<span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding comment was added by {{User|ChosidFrumBirth}}, 04:20, 15/July/07.</span>

::::Please cite a specific example of this (page number, etc.). I have these sources, too, and I don't see what ChosidFrumBirth is seeing in them. It's hard to verify if there are no specifics.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 13:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:::DLand came up with an excellent workable solution, and this is just more of the same agenda trying to downgrade Baruch and any Medzbhibozh dynasty.  It's getting very tiring. --[[User:ChosidFrumBirth|ChosidFrumBirth]] 04:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::::I don't understand why we can't just keep both claims and make sure both are properly sourced? This whole thing can be accomplished in two sentences - just put <nowiki><ref>SOURCE</ref></nowiki> after the sentence and it's done. This doesn't need to be so divisive.--[[User:DLand|DLand]][[User talk:DLand|<sup style="color:green;"><small>TALK</small></sup>]] 05:55, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::That's fine with me. I provided verifiable sources. Can ChosidFrumBirth? If he can't, that part of the sentence needs to be deleted, per Wiki policy.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 13:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

::::::Why don't we just delete Baruch entirely, as well as the Medzbhibozh dynasty -- that's what Klezmer has been trying to do since this whole thing started. I'm done.  --[[User:ChosidFrumBirth|ChosidFrumBirth]] 18:05, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

If anyone wants to hold on to the information that was in the tree, you can easily go to the earlier reversion and [[WP:USERFY|userfy]] it. I hope this is satisfactory to all the parties involved in the dispute.--[[User:DLand|DLand]][[User talk:DLand|<sup style="color:green;"><small>TALK</small></sup>]] 15:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:Can you please point out the major dispute you solved? I found the tree quite helpful. --[[User:Shuki|Shuki]] 20:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::See [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-04-29 Mezhbizh (Hasidic dynasty)]]. Note that the primary reason I had for removing the tree was that I think that it is beyond the scope of an article that relates specifically to the Baal Shem Tov. Solving the dispute (pending comment from the two main parties, who are still blocked for 3RR) is a secondary benefit. Again, I'm not arguing that the information itself is not substantive and helpful, just that this is not the place for it.
:::I disagree. It is not beyond the scope of the article to include the family tree of an important historical figure.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 05:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC) 

::On an unrelated note, please comment above on my page-move proposal - there needs to be some kind of consensus before the page can get moved.--[[User:DLand|DLand]][[User talk:DLand|<sup style="color:green;"><small>TALK</small></sup>]] 20:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

== Baal Shem tov descendants ==

The section listing the descendants of the Baal Shem Tov, which is not in dispute, has been deleted without discussion. It seems proper to include in this article a list of prominent descendants. --[[User:Redaktor|Redaktor]] 22:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:I noted that Reb Nachman of Breslov was the Baal Shem Tov's great-grandson, and I added a sentence about him. Other than him (and R. Baruch of Mezeritch, who is already mentioned), I don't think that any of his other close descendants - at least those who were formerly in the "family tree" - are prominent enough to need to be included in this article.--[[User:DLand|DLand]][[User talk:DLand|<sup style="color:green;"><small>TALK</small></sup>]] 23:41, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
::I agree with Redaktor on this issue. The descendants themselves were a valuable piece of this article and it was not in dispute. It shouldn't have been deleted so abruptly. Regarding your additional comment about Nachman, I believe it is completely out of place. "One of the most well known bearers of the Baal Shem Tov's legacy..." I think that all the founders of various dynasties can say this and standard-bearers today will want them to be included. For instance, some people would say that R. Shneur Zalman of Liady should be included because the Baal Shem Tov appear to him in a dream, therefore he can claim to be a "well known bearer" of the legacy. I think it opens up pandora's box. I don't think we want to go there. Better to simply put back the family tree because that explains both Boruch and Nachman without controversy.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 05:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Ok, how about this: Part of the reason that I didn't like the family tree is that it was crudely made and seemed to exist only for the purpose of highlighting the biological relationship of Reb Boruch and Reb Nachman to the Baal Shem Tov. But if a real, graphical family tree could be constructed I would have less objection to it. So, let me suggest turning to [[User:Rachack]] or [[User:Eliyak]] for help on making one, as they have experience with family trees and other graphics (see [[Template:Brisker Family Tree]] for an example).--[[User:DLand|DLand]][[User talk:DLand|<sup style="color:green;"><small>TALK</small></sup>]] 05:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

==Baruch and Baal Shem Tov==

I'm probably a fool for falling for this once again, but:

Is Martin Buber's Tales of Hasidism ({{ISBN|0-8052-0995-6}}) good enough, or will Klezmer discount that too:  Page 87, the section on "Barukh of Mezbizh": "An old man once asked the Baal Shem Tov . . . Barukh, the Baal Shem's grandson, who was three years old at the time, was present and heard the question.  He said: "Grandfather, . ." . . .  After the death of his grandfather, the Baal Shem Tov, the boy Barukh was taken into the house of Rabbi Pinhas of Koretz . . . "

Professor Alfasi, in HaHasidut, page 31, says Baruch was his grandfather's favorite, and Mekor Baruch says that Baruch went to Pinchas' home because the Baal Shem Tov instructed Pinchas that Baruch was to be his designated successor.

Does this finally end Klezmer's theory that Baruch was a disciple of Pinhas and may never have even met the Baal Shem Tov, or are we going to have more of this?  --[[User:ChosidFrumBirth|ChosidFrumBirth]] 12:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
:I have to go with Klezmer on this one. While the two source indicate that R. Baruch was close with his grandfather, they don't necessarily suggest that he was a student per se. Klezmer's version is more neutral as it stands right now, unless we can dig up a source that says explicitly that they had a student-teacher relationship.--[[User:DLand|DLand]][[User talk:DLand|<sup style="color:green;"><small>TALK</small></sup>]] 17:17, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


::A few last comments before I just give up:
::<small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding comment was added by {{User|ChosidFrumBirth}}, 12:29, 18/July/07.</span></small>

:::Should have given up a long time ago. You've threatened to many times, but for some reason, you keep arguing. We're all tired of your nonsense. Give it up already.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 13:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC) 

::First of all, Klezmer cites Rabinowitz, but Rabinowitz points to no hard facts and makes only the passing statement as a “maybe” based purely on speculation which actually contradicts all logic and everything we do know from sources about the Baal Shem Tov, his daughter Udl, and her son Baruch, and their relationships.  According to the stories, Baruch was considered a precious treasure by them and brought “light” into the house.  There are many stories about Baruch interacting with the Baal Shem Tov and others at the Baal Shem Tov’s house, tish, etc., etc.  Buber and others didn’t just make it up.
::<small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding comment was added by {{User|ChosidFrumBirth}}, 12:29, 18/July/07.</span></small>

:::You should have learned that lesson a long time ago. We are not allowed on wiki to evaluate sources for "truth" only for verifiability ([[WP:V]]). Rabinowicz is a verifiable source. I've argued for a long time that government records contradict many of the Chasidic sources and these gov't records are recognized in most academic circles as over-riding primary evidence. But through the mediation process that you participated in here at wiki, my point of view was overturned by merely the fact that a source existed and is verifiable, not anything about the quality of the source. You can argue all day long that Rabinowicz and nobel-prize winner Weisel are bad sources, but it makes no difference. I could argue all day long that Mekor Baruch is a slanted, biased source that may not contain "true" facts and that Buber pretty much plagiarized it, but my opinion (as does yours) about the quality of the sources doesn't matter. All that matters is that a verifiable source exists.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 13:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

:::I have two sources which specifically say that Boruch and the Besht never met (at least outside of infanthood) and that Boruch was not directly taught by him. You have a source that indicates a 3 year old Boruch was together with his grandfather but no source that says he was directly taught by him. An effective wiki neutral point of view ([[WP:NPOV]]) is to leave the words as they stand and basically be silent on the issue.--[[User:Klezmer|Klezmer]] 13:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC) 

::Second, Klezmer says no way "all the Besht's wisdom was imparted to a three year old" -- so, that makes Baruch not a student at all?  And was "all" the Besht's wisdom imparted to anyone?  How much has to be imparted to qualify?  More importantly, it is also clear in the sources that Baruch was a precocious and a genius, as the story about his giving deep answers to complicated questions in front of the Baal Shem Tov at age 3 shows, and so he was perfectly capable of learning and understanding from his grandfather at a very young age, participated in discussions, observed, listened, and was clearly trained and educated there for the most important first seven years of his life.

::Last, but most important, when we’re talking about teacher-student in this context, we have to remember what we’re really talking about.  The Baal Shem Tov didn’t have a school or hold classes or even give shiurim.  He “taught” all of those disciples by speaking at meals, in conversations, etc., etc, and that teaching happens even more so with family members like children and grandchildren, especially if they are living together.  The teaching goes on continually in homes of tzadikim, every minute of every day, by example, in conversation, by casual remarks, by divray torah, etc., etc. and Baruch was automatically taught this way and more constantly and regularly than other “students” who didn’t live there and weren’t even in Medzhibozh all the time.  That’s how fathers and grandfathers pass things on. 

::Every Rebbe’s son, even today, and for that matter Hasidim in general, goes to heder and has tutors, but their spiritual legacy education and real training comes from the Rebbe, their father or grandfather.

::To say that Baruch didn’t learn from his grandfather is just ignoring the facts and wrong.  This just never ends.  First there was never anybody in Medzhibozh after Baruch, then there was never a dynasty or family, then Baruch never met his own grandfather, then when we finally get past all that that he didn’t learn from him.  What next?  This is for the birds.  I’m sorry for my frustration, but this has been going on for months and is just getting too much for me.  The earth is flat too. --[[User:ChosidFrumBirth|ChosidFrumBirth]] 12:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

==Besht vs Ari==

Did Luria really encourage the view that this world was contemptible and to be passed over? I am not so sure. [[User:ThePeg|ThePeg]] ([[User talk:ThePeg|talk]]) 00:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

== Request ==

Can someone edit the page to inform those of us who don't know how to phonetically pronounce his name? I don't read Hebrew.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/171.66.83.209|171.66.83.209]] ([[User talk:171.66.83.209|talk]]) 18:41, 22 January 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

what happened to the baal shem tov when he wa 16  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/67.230.141.219|67.230.141.219]] ([[User talk:67.230.141.219|talk]]) 17:35, 10 November 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Major editing needed ==

This article is so full of OR and POV that I simply don't know where to start. Almost nothing is referenced. Could others who actually know about this topic please weigh in; I'll start. [[User:Yehoishophot Oliver|Yehoishophot Oliver]] ([[User talk:Yehoishophot Oliver|talk]]) 21:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

== POV violations; reads like an advertisement/propaganda ==

This article reads like an attempt to proselytize, or, at best, hagiography, so I've tagged it with POV-lead.  

Here's a list of some of the statements that can hardly be considered POV neutral...

:::"Due to his recognized honesty and his knowledge of human nature..."

:::'The magnificent scenery in this, the finest region of the Carpathians, and the possibility of enjoying it without the interruptions of city life, compensated him for his great privations."

:::"Israel ben Eliezer had learned how to use plants for healing purposes and to effect wonderful cures."

:::"The Besht’s refreshing new approaches to Judaism were welcome, expanding with little resistance in a community hungry for change."

:::"This panentheism would have been ignored, had Besht not been a man of the people"

:::"Such a state produces indescribable bliss, which is the foremost fruit of the true worship of God."

:::"Besht is quite naturally one of the most interesting figures in modern Jewish history."

[[User:PainMan|PainMan]] ([[User talk:PainMan|talk]]) 03:27, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. This article is supposed to be an encyclopedic entry, not a low IQ children's fairy tale. I think a moderator needs to clean this article up into proper third-person form.  <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/162.206.196.58|162.206.196.58]] ([[User talk:162.206.196.58|talk]]) 05:40, 3 December 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Fact-check me, please! ==

For all of these bits of data, I'm citing from ''The Light and Fire of the Baal Shem Tov'' by Yitzhak Buxbaum. Unless noted, the article currently has no citation as of this writing.
# Article: Besht was born 1698; L&F says it was 1700 (p. 18).  
# Article: Besht was appointed leader of the Lamed Vov at age 18; L&F says "In 1718, when he was eighteen years old, the Baal Shem Tov suggested a program.... The Besht wanted the hidden tzadikim to accept upon themselves the task of educating children." (p. 30) Later, he assumes sole leadership at age 30; before then, we was on a committee of three that made the decisions in place of R. Adam Baal Shem of Ropshitz, the previous leader. (p. 103)
# Article: no date of joining Lamed Vov; L&F says age 14 (p. 27)
# Article: Besht married first wife at 18; L&F says he was unmarried at 20 (p. 35). Then he married his first wife Chava, who died soon afterwards (p. 38).
# Article: Second wife named Chana; L&F says Sarah (p. 41); Chava (with a vav) was first wife (see above). However, endnote says that her name was Leah-Rachel according to Chabad tradition (Shochet 46, Hilsenrad 42).
# Article: "only in keeping with Besht’s character that he welcomed baptism by the Frankists" ??!!!; L&F says "Many of the rabbis rejoiced at this mass conversion, because the Frankists... had become a serious threat.... The Baal Shem Tov, however, was deeply depressed by this event... 'The Shechinah is weeping and wailing over them. As long as a diseased limb is attached to the body, there's hope that it may recover. But once it's cut off..." (p. 336)  
[[User:Musashiaharon|Musashiaharon]] ([[User talk:Musashiaharon|talk]]) 14:36, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

== Documentary, Fragmentary, or Supplementary? ==

It looks like parts of this article were written without regard to the rest of the article. Two examples are the fact that there are two sections called "Legacy" and "His Legacy," and that the same quote "He who believes..." appears twice in the article with different translations.  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ari1891adler|Ari1891adler]] ([[User talk:Ari1891adler|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ari1891adler|contribs]]) 13:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Continued pervasive lack of neutrality ==

I just came across this and merely from reading the second sentence (The Besht is better known to many religious [[Jew|Jews]] as “the holy Baal Shem”) I noted the astounding lack of neutrality (writing the above is as neutral as writing that he's better known to mitnagdim as "the Baal Shem Ra" [master of the bad name], i.e., it's not neutral at all). After I read the notice on the top (going back to August 2011) that the neutrality of this article is disputed, I naturally said "par for the course." Someone skilled at this kind of thing has to carefully go through the whole article (which has POV issues ''all over'' like someone pointed out above under "POV violations") and create a tone of neutrality. For example (not particular to this post, just an example), instead of writing "he was observed to perform many miracles" or "he was observed to fool people in supposed performance of miracles," one writes something like "his adherents related that he performed miracles." And that's not even talking about what is missing from the article, i.e., more than two seconds of reference to mitnagdim, which is pretty significant for the purposes of neutrality. Anyway, I have no personal interest in getting into editing of the article (and one can only imagine how contentious it must have been to have its neutrality in dispute for almost five years already), I'm just noting that that neutrality notice should '''not''' come down the way this article is on Wikipedia. [[User:Contributor613|Contributor613]] ([[User talk:Contributor613|talk]]) 02:27, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified {{plural:7|one external link|7 external links}} on [[Baal Shem Tov]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=745821768 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140222163751/http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=39166&st=%D7%99%D7%95%D7%90%D7%9C+%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%9C+%D7%A9%D7%9D&pgnum=42&hilite=e38977fb-dc8d-4e65-80bb-20ee1d6178cf to http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=39166&st=%D7%99%D7%95%D7%90%D7%9C+%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%9C+%D7%A9%D7%9D&pgnum=42&hilite=e38977fb-dc8d-4e65-80bb-20ee1d6178cf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140222163753/http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=39166&st=%D7%99%D7%95%D7%90%D7%9C+%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%9C+%D7%A9%D7%9D&pgnum=43&hilite=e38977fb-dc8d-4e65-80bb-20ee1d6178cf to http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=39166&st=%D7%99%D7%95%D7%90%D7%9C+%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%9C+%D7%A9%D7%9D&pgnum=43&hilite=e38977fb-dc8d-4e65-80bb-20ee1d6178cf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090430214832/http://www.otzadikim.com:80/AboutUs.aspx to http://www.otzadikim.com/AboutUs.aspx
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140108165235/http://www.isbs.com/partnumber.asp?cid=&pnid=392756 to http://www.isbs.com/partnumber.asp?cid=&pnid=392756
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060910102633/http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/6663.html to http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/6663.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060615023546/http://baalshemtov.com:80/story.php?type=1 to http://www.baalshemtov.com/story.php?type=1
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060629155111/http://baalshemtov.com:80/library.php to http://www.baalshemtov.com/library.php

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==Why Hasidism Spread Section==

<small>(Moved to correct position in page. [[User:הסרפד|<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman'" dir="rtl">הסרפד</span>]] ([[User talk:הסרפד|call me '''''Hasirpad''''']]) 14:42, 26 April 2017 (UTC))</small>

I am going to create a section titled, The Bal Shem Tov and The Spread of Hasidism. I will add information from the article, Why Hasidism Spread by Stampfer.  I will include information about how Hasidism began with the Bal Shem Tov in Podolia. I will then talk about how the Hasidic movement spread from Podolia to nearby regions in Europe. I will also include information about why Hasidism spread to some regions and countries and not to others. If anyone wants to comment on these changes, please let me know on this talk page or on my talk page.<ref>{{cite web|last1=Stampfer|title=Why Hasidism Spread}}</ref> [[User:EdenJacnuk|EdenJacnuk]] ([[User talk:EdenJacnuk|talk]]) 01:18, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
:[[User:EdenJacnuk|EdenJacnuk]]: I think that would be a more appropriate addition to [[Hasidism]], rather than the founder's biography. [[User:הסרפד|<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman'" dir="rtl">הסרפד</span>]] ([[User talk:הסרפד|call me '''''Hasirpad''''']]) 14:42, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
:[[User:EdenJacnuk|EdenJacnuk]]: I agree with Hasirpad. If you can tie those developments to the Baal Shem, though, then I think these developments do deserve to go in here.[[User:Chapmansh|Chapmansh]] ([[User talk:Chapmansh|talk]]) 00:09, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

I believe that I tied them to the Baal Shem Tov [[User:EdenJacnuk|EdenJacnuk]] ([[User talk:EdenJacnuk|talk]]) 04:27, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== Proposing Additions to the "Practices" Section ==

Right now, the section regarding the practices of the Besht could use some expansion, so I am planning on adding to it with information from the eighth chapter of ''Founder of Hasidism: A Quest for the Historical Ba’al Shem Tov'' by Moshe Rosman, a historian from the Department of Jewish History at the Bar-Ilan University in Israel. In the book, Rosman writes about letters sent to the Besht by his brother-in-law which describe the practices he was said to have taken part in. These include prophecy, communication with the divine, the ability to see the souls of men, as well as medical practices both mundane and supernatural in origin. This should account for the bulk of the expansions I plan on making. Rosman also explains how different interpretations of the Besht's practices exist, as not all sources agree on the nature of his abilities. This will likely be another paragraph after the former--in which his generally accepted practices are explained--and will not be as large of an addition.

If there is anything anyone wants to add or change, please do so: comment here or on my Talk page and I will listen to your advice.

[[User:Collin654321|Collin654321]] ([[User talk:Collin654321|talk]]) 20:00, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
:This sounds like a great addition.[[User:Chapmansh|Chapmansh]] ([[User talk:Chapmansh|talk]]) 23:01, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

== Alleged claims of descent from the Baal Shem Tov requires [[WP:RS]] ==

Please see: Centralized discussion at [[Talk:Timeline of LGBT Jewish history#Descended from Baal Shem Tov? Proof please!]]. Thank you, [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] ([[User talk:IZAK|talk]]) 19:37, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

== Baal Shem Tov's Signature ==

I'm trying to make-out or read what his signature says....  
I can make-out what I think says "Israel ben HaRav Eliezer"... not sure if I'm reading that correctly with the two `"`...  Not seeing any consistency between the "b" in Ben, and the "v" in Reb/Rav... 

Have no idea what that last part is supposed to say... The date maybe, his last name?  Almost looks like it says Baal Shem Tov to me... but that last character looks more like a zayin not a bet for the word Tov. Not sure if that 2nd to last character is supposed to be a colon or a vav with a dot...

Maybe a combination of some sort? What do you guys think? [[User:Thelazyleo|<span style="color:blue;">T<span style="color:royalblue">he</span>l<span style="color:royalblue">azy</span>l<span style="color:royalblue">eo</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Thelazyleo|<span>talk</span>]]) 05:39, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
:ישראל במוהר"ר אליעזר בע"ש
:(Stands for: ישראל בן מורנו הרב רבי אליעזר בעל שם)
:with something else written under the word בע"ש, that I can't make out either (perhaps not part of the original signature). <big>[[User:-- -- --|'''--''']] [[User talk:-- -- --|'''--''']] [[Special:Contributions/-- -- --|'''--''']]</big> 08:39, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Ah, yeah במוהר"ר as you say. Couldn't make out that Mem without a joint line, was too busy thinking it was a `"`.
His signature seems to curve upward toward the end. No idea what that is on the bottom. That 3rd to last character on the bottom definitely looks like a Bet though.  
I can almost make out the bottom there, but no idea what that figure-eight looking character is supposed to be...
The last part looks like a Bet colon Zayin to me. Maybe some sort of verse quote?  

I started a discussion over here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Besht_Signature.svg
Hopefully someone can gives us a bit of context to work with regarding where the image came from [[User:Thelazyleo|<span style="color:blue;">T<span style="color:royalblue">he</span>l<span style="color:royalblue">azy</span>l<span style="color:royalblue">eo</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Thelazyleo|<span>talk</span>]]) 02:51, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
:Good idea. Pinging uploader {{user|Kbh3rd}}. Good luck. <big>[[User:-- -- --|'''--''']] [[User talk:-- -- --|'''--''']] [[Special:Contributions/-- -- --|'''--''']]</big> 05:33, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
:PS. It's unlikely that Baal Shem Tov would use a colon, as he was most likely not familiar with modern punctuation. <big>[[User:-- -- --|'''--''']] [[User talk:-- -- --|'''--''']] [[Special:Contributions/-- -- --|'''--''']]</big> 05:41, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

== Article naming ==

: I see the article title has been moved around and ended up with the current name. The subject's name is ''Israel ben Eliezer'' and even though it may likely be the more common presentation, the use of honorifics is generally against policies and guidelines. [[Baal Shem]] is certainly an honorific title the subject is noted in the lead as being the "Baal Shem Tov".   --  [[User:Otr500|Otr500]] ([[User talk:Otr500|talk]]) 12:08, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
::See [[WP:COMMONNAME]] for this article and the other one you just moved. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] <sup>[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|<span style="color: Green;">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 20:48, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

== Chasidic Saying Is Quoted Incorrectly ==

In the article it says: 
''In Hasidic tradition, there’s a saying, “Someone who believes in all the stories of the Baal Shem Tov and the other mystics and holy men is a fool; <u>someone who looks at any single story and says “That one could not be true' is a heretic</u>.”''

The reference given is to an interview by Kenneth Woodward of R. Simon Jacobson: https://www.meaningfullife.com/miracles-ken-woodward/

The quote above, however, is not accurate.

This is what Jacobson actually says:
'''Jacobson: . . . In Chassidic tradition, there’s a saying, “Someone who believes in all the stories of the Baal Shem Tov and the other mystics and holy men is a fool;''<u> someone who doesn’t believe them is a heretic</u>''.”'''

So, a correction is in order, I think!   [[User:Mwidunn|Mwidunn]] ([[User talk:Mwidunn|talk]]) 21:37, 2 March 2022 (UTC)