View source for Talk:Algorithm

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== Where to cover "algorithms" as used in discussions about social media, big tech, etc? ==

I think this article should have some reference to the fact that "algorithms" are now being discussed in the context of social media platforms, "Big Tech", and related Internet technologies. As governments in Europe, the US, and other regions are discussing whether to regulate social platforms and companies such as Twitter, Facebook, and Google, the discussion often comes back to "algorithms". For instance, this is coming up quite often in discussions around [[Section 230]] in the US. In Europe there is an EU activity of "Algorithm Awareness-Building."<ref>{{cite web |url=https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/algorithmic-awareness-building}}</ref> Just recently, two representatives introduced the "Protecting Americans from Dangerous Algorithms Act"<ref>{{cite web |url=https://eshoo.house.gov/media/press-releases/reps-eshoo-and-malinowski-introduce-bill-hold-tech-platforms-liable-algorithmic}}</ref>. 

Given that many people may turn to Wikipedia to help understand what an "algorithm" is, I feel like there should be some mention of this usage on the page. But given the amount of detailed and academic info on the current page, I'm not sure how to best integrate this other content. Perhaps something brief in the lead paragraph and then a mention under "Informal definition"? Or a new section about "Algorithms in current politics"? Or a new section under "History" (although that seems mostly about the refinement of algorithms)?  Any thoughts? - [[User:Dyork|Dyork]] ([[User talk:Dyork|talk]]) 17:25, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

: I agree that there should be some mention of the social media usage on this page. However I think it's wrong to conflate that usage with the real meaning of the word "algorithm". In the social-media context, "algorithm" usually just means that some kind of processing has been done; it doesn't mean that the processing was in accordance with any kind of clear procedure, which is what an algorithm is supposed to be. I don't want this page to be about any old data-processing. That's not an algorithm. That's just what journos refer to as "algorithm". If we let that go, then we'll need a new term to refer to real algorithms: e.g. "Explicit procedure for performing transformations on data", which is a bit unwieldy. 

: Can we have our word back please, mister?

: 12:30, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

: Absolutely. I'm surprised there isn't a separate article [[Algorithm (social media)]] that's written for a much more lay audience. Social media algorithms are usually more complex and aren't talked about in terms of big-O or anything like that. Instead, it's on the social impact of various choices of what to hilight -- things like the [[filter bubble]], [[algorithmic radicalization]], and even allegations that some social media company's decisions can [[Big Tech|sway political elections]]. And there are [https://news.google.com/search?q=social%20media%20algorithm&hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen many news articles] about this topic. --[[Special:Contributions/Hirsutism|Hirsutism]] ([[User talk:Hirsutism|talk]]) 18:45, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

:: Or perhaps an article about the [[Social impact of algorithms]], with a heavy emphasis on social media algorithms? Because there are articles about algorithms being used to [https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56515827 hire and fire people], for [https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53806038 insurance and policing], and [https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/2/18/21121286/algorithms-bias-discrimination-facial-recognition-transparency several other places they can introduce bias], and those should probably also be addressed in the for-a-lay-audience article. --[[Special:Contributions/Hirsutism|Hirsutism]] ([[User talk:Hirsutism|talk]]) 20:18, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
::''"In the social-media context, "algorithm" usually just means that some kind of processing has been done; it doesn't mean that the processing was in accordance with any kind of clear procedure, which is what an algorithm is supposed to be. I don't want this page to be about any old data-processing. That's not an algorithm. That's just what journos refer to as "algorithm". If we let that go, then we'll need a new term to refer to real algorithms: e.g. "Explicit procedure for performing transformations on data", which is a bit unwieldy."''
::Thank you! I've been trying to understand what news/social media means by algorithms. But none of the actual definitions help. Now I see that that is because the popular use of algorithm is similar to the popular use of 'metaphysics.' It means something different and sillier.
::We Social impact of algorithms: I see that there is already a wiki dealing with [[Algorithmic Bias]] that probably accounts for this. [[User:Jesseraekern|Jesseraekern]] ([[User talk:Jesseraekern|talk]]) 18:14, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
: I've written a bit of an article at [[User:Hirsutism/Algorithm (social media)]]. Could someone take a look at it, and tell me if they think the article should be expanded to cover all AI-with-a-social-impact, or should it focus only on social media algorithms? On the other side, there's quite a few articles about this already, I don't know whether we even ''need'' a new separate article, other than a short summary in this article? --[[Special:Contributions/Hirsutism|Hirsutism]] ([[User talk:Hirsutism|talk]]) 20:41, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

:: The "algorithms" that are discussed in the context of social media are usually not algorithms as discussed in this article; the social media "algorithms" that are derived from big datasets by training ML systems are not transparent, and can't even really be expressed. I think it's incorrect to call these systems "algorithms". 

:: However I do appreciate that journalists and ML promoters do refer to these systems as "algorithms". Therefore I support the creation of a page for "algorithms" in a social media context. That might make it easier to keep this page focused on the subject of real algorithms.

:: [[User:MrDemeanour|MrDemeanour]] ([[User talk:MrDemeanour|talk]]) 08:56, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

:::Agreed: "algorithm" as used in a social-media context is an important concept, quite distinct from this article's focus. The content of Hirsutism's draft at [[User:Hirsutism/Algorithm (social media)]] looks like a good start, but I'd argue that social media algorithms are simply a special case of a [[recommender system]]s, both on the technical and on the social/behavioral side. The social and behavioral aspects of recommender systems are mostly covered in the [[filter bubble]] article, but that's only one aspect. I'm not sure how to organize this better.... --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] ([[User talk:Macrakis|talk]]) 14:14, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

'Algorithm' as used by non-computer-scientists / non-experts to discuss recommender systems in social media (which, surely, are implemented by large numbers of algorithms) is a technically-incorrect use of the word almost entirely unrelated to this article.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/72.200.126.73|72.200.126.73]] ([[User talk:72.200.126.73#top|talk]]) 12:52, 23 August 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

=== Page tidy up needed.===
This page is quite long and rambling and seems to have some content that could go to other pages such as the section on Euclid's algorithm and the conversation between Turing etc. This is a gateway concept to many related issues and it would be good if it was easier for the general reader to navigate. I can get started on some of this. [[User:AmandaSLawrence|Amanda Lawrence]] 01:16, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

:I whole-heartedly agree that this article strays off topic in many places. In particular, there is a paragraph in the "Expressing algorithms" section that talks about Turing machines. I have no problem with that idea, but it seems to come out of nowhere to me as currently written. I would either delete it or add a transitional phrase to the beginning of the first sentence. But I'm not going to do that right now, since there is no need to fine-tune this section if it is likely to be significantly modified in line with some of the other discussion on this Talk page. 
:[[User:Mike-c-in-mv|Mike-c-in-mv]] ([[User talk:Mike-c-in-mv|talk]]) 23:44, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:AmandaSLawrence|AmandaSLawrence]] [[Special:Contributions/117.20.112.19|117.20.112.19]] ([[User talk:117.20.112.19|talk]]) 00:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
:::The whole section on Euclid's algorithm apart from the first para could be cut which would really help the flow - the examples could be quite short if they have their own page. But I'm not sure if all that long text should be added to the Euclid page or just cut.  [[User:AmandaSLawrence|Amanda Lawrence]] 11:12, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

== Merge "[[Algorithmics]]" into this page ==

Anyone against merging [[Algorithmics]] into [[Algorithm]]? That page seems almost completely useless. [[User:Weebney|Weebney]] ([[User talk:Weebney|talk]]) 19:55, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

:In favour - go for it. I don't think we need the illustration - not for the term anyway.  [[User:AmandaSLawrence|Amanda Lawrence]] 10:57, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
:It is finished. [[User:Weebney|Weebney]] ([[User talk:Weebney|talk]]) 06:02, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

== Contrast with heuristics ==

While I understand the thought behind contrasting algorithms with heuristics, I think it makes the page longer than it needs to be. It doesn't add new information about algorithms nor does it clear up common misconceptions. It seems like more of a detour in what should be a concise article. Any thoughts on keeping or removing the heuristics paragraph? [[User:Clubspike2|Clubspike2]] ([[User talk:Clubspike2|talk]]) 11:56, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

== Definition of heuristic ==

The statement that "a heuristic is an approach to solving problems that do not have well-defined correct or optimal results" is simply wrong.  A heuristic is an approximate and often unproved method, independent of whether there exist well-defined correct of optimal results.  See [[Heuristic]] in WP: "a technique designed for problem solving more quickly when classic methods are too slow for finding an exact or approximate solution, or when classic methods fail to find any exact solution". [[User:Zaslav|Zaslav]] ([[User talk:Zaslav|talk]]) 00:16, 19 December 2024 (UTC)