View source for Talk:Achilles

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== Description ==

For several reasons, we shouldn't keep that [[Dares Phrygius]] content.
:It's very late; we might as well include medieval descriptions.
:We've no reason to think it epitomic; it deviates massively from Homer and classical versions of the Troy epic, excising gods and reducing the Trojan Horse to a gate motif.
:Frazer's translation dignifies it; the actual Latin text [http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/dares.html 12–13] is curt, a series of keywords with no sentences or even verbs (the whole passage is like an ancient draft of a table of characteristics of Trojan and Greek characters - the author would have loved infoboxes) which even Cornil's plainer translation gussies up: "Achilles had a large chest, a charming mouth, large, powerful limbs and long manes of curly hair. He was gentle, fierce in battle and generous. He had a cheerful face and chestnut hair."<ref>Jonathan Cornil, [http://lib.ugent.be/fulltxt/RUG01/001/891/500/RUG01-001891500_2012_0001_AC.pdf ''Dares Phrygius' de excidio Trojae historia: philological commentary and translation''], page 79. 2011–2012, Universiteit Gent.</ref>
:The happenstance of its survival doesn't require inclusion; as [[WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE]] says, "merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia".
:By including it, however much we qualify it as later and falsely attributed, we give readers a false impression of its standing; why would Wikipedia include it if it wasn't authoritative?
Pinging @[[User:Piccco|Piccco]] and @[[User:Becarefulbro|Becarefulbro]], hopefully as a courtesy and not a nuisance. [[User:NebY|NebY]] ([[User talk:NebY|talk]]) 14:49, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

:@[[User:NebY|NebY]], greeting. Honestly I don't see a big problem with adding that quote, given that we mention the late antique date of its writing. That description does not contradict Homer's description of Achilles as well. I leave the last word to Picco. [[User:Becarefulbro|Becarefulbro]] ([[User talk:Becarefulbro|talk]]) 19:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
:Hello NebY, thanks for the tag. As you could tell, I don't have a very strong opinion about this one. When I saw that Becarefulbro restored it, I didn't bother reverting, because personally I didn't mind the text being there, as long as it was properly described for what it is, instead of the previous misleading title "the accounts of Dares Phrygius" (if you hadn't commented about it, I wouldn't have paid attention myself). I also saw this source being used in other articles as well, so I was just neutral about it. If you really feel like it's not suitable to be there, I personally wouldn't insist, especially now that I added a couple more sentences and the section isn't just one sentence long. [[User:Piccco|Piccco]] ([[User talk:Piccco|talk]]) 19:10, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
::Also, the fact that it is "decidedly pro-Trojan" (as Theoi.com says) makes sense and indirectly confirms that it is a late Latin work and couldn't have been based on an earlier Greek original, since the Romans saw themselves descendants of the Trojans and liked to paint them in a positive light. So, the text centrainly diverges from the earlier Greek canon where Achilles came from. [[User:Piccco|Piccco]] ([[User talk:Piccco|talk]]) 19:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== Language ==

{{Semi-protected edit request|answered=yes}}
Please specify in the introduction that Άχιλλεύς is Ancient Greek. In its current state, it implies that Άχιλλεύς is the modern form of Achilleus, which is false. The [[smooth breathing]] mark does not exist in Modern Greek and was dropped several decades ago. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:C7C:2DCE:1F00:71F4:A283:16BC:6C70|2A02:C7C:2DCE:1F00:71F4:A283:16BC:6C70]] ([[User talk:2A02:C7C:2DCE:1F00:71F4:A283:16BC:6C70|talk]]) 21:28, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2025 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Achilles|answered=yes}}
===Video Games=== 
He is featured as a playable character in the various [[Hack and slash]] games published by [[Koei Tecmo]]
* ''The 2011 video game [[Warriors: Legends of Troy]], developed by [[Koei Canada]].
* ''The 2011 video game [[Warriors Orochi 3]] (also known as Musou Orochi 2), developed by [[Omega Force]]
* ''The 2018 video game [[Warriors Orochi 4]], also developed by [[Omega Force]]
[[User:KiroTheAssassin|KiroTheAssassin]] ([[User talk:KiroTheAssassin|talk]]) 23:18, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

:To include these cultural references, we would need sourcing satisfying [[MOS:POPCULT]]. &ndash; [[User:Michael Aurel|Michael Aurel]] ([[User talk:Michael Aurel|talk]]) 00:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

== Edit request- Spelling error ==

In the section about modern literature and arts, the ninth bullet point spells achilles "akhilles". [[Special:Contributions/170.211.108.2|170.211.108.2]] ([[User talk:170.211.108.2|talk]]) 17:42, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

:Fixed. &ndash; [[User:Michael Aurel|Michael Aurel]] ([[User talk:Michael Aurel|talk]]) 17:47, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

== Edit request ==

In the section about modern literature and arts, the ninth bullet point spells centar "kentar". [[User:Noah Ed|Noah Ed]] ([[User talk:Noah Ed|talk]]) 17:51, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

:Where are you referring to? I do not see this. [[User:ScrabbleTiles|ScrabbleTiles]] ([[User talk:ScrabbleTiles|talk]]) 17:59, 18 February 2025 (UTC)
::Another editor, [[User:Michael Aurel|Michael Aurel]], already fixed it [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Achilles&diff=1276405480&oldid=1275427328] ~~ [[User:Jessintime|Jessintime]] ([[User talk:Jessintime|talk]]) 18:18, 18 February 2025 (UTC)
:::Ok, thanks [[User:ScrabbleTiles|ScrabbleTiles]] ([[User talk:ScrabbleTiles|talk]]) 19:42, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 16 April 2025 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Achilles|answered=no}}
Under consorts, add "Medea (in the Elysian Fields)"
if needed, see Medea's wiki page and reference n#13 (Apollonius of Rhodes. Jason and the Argonauts. Translated by Poochigian. Penguin Classics. p. 179. ISBN 978-0143106869) [[User:Theban Prophetess|Theban Prophetess]] ([[User talk:Theban Prophetess|talk]]) 15:35, 16 April 2025 (UTC)