Wiki143:Barnstar and award proposals/Archive11

Mediation Barnstar

The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

File:MediationBarnstar.png

Mediation Barnstar, created by Sango123

I noticed that Cabalists, Mediators and Arbitrators do an awful lot of work on Wikipedia, and they hardly get any recognition. I thought we ought to roll out a barnstar in their honor. I approached Sango123 to ask her if she would design the barnstar, seeing as I am no good at design. So, she came up with this.

It would be awarded to Cabalists, Mediators and Arbitrators who do an excellent job on a specific job, or just a great job in general. Tell me what you think!

Viva La Vie Boheme

• I like it. --Guinnog 01:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose We already have an award for Admins work. --evrik 04:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
• 'Oppose per Evrik. I think we're getting star-happy. I don't like it. --South Philly 02:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment; Arbitration and mediation are very different to adminship. But never the less, I agree that it is unecessary. smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 18:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
• Emphatic support - Most of the proposals given here seem fairly trivial, but this one - in my opinion, at least - would fill a real need. Mediators have volunteered to take on one of the most (if not the most) frustrating and thankless tasks Wikipedia has to offer. Let's start giving these out liberally, and soon. – ClockworkSoul 16:05, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
• Wikiproject or PU award; while important, I'm not sure it is major enough to earn a sacred barnstar; but I like the idea. smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 18:13, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
• I agree with User:Smurrayinchester --evrik 18:25, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support the idea, but not the image. Rather than an image of a dove in front of a barnstar, I think a small emblem of a dove would work for a non-barnstar award. (Also, I think that that dove image is being used too much, and we should get a few new dove images.) --Gray Porpoise 19:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support I agree with Smurrayinchester.--Ed 14:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Those comments were conflicting. I support the idea, but not the picture.--Ed 13:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support As a Med Cabalist I love the idea. Æon ^{Insane Ward} 02:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support. G.He 01:19, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Mediation is not the same as administering. Like the image also. Herostratus 02:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment As mediators are integral to the operation of wikipedia, I say we add them to the da Vinci barnstar. --evrik 22:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support an individual award, ie. the picture above. Daniel.Bryant 05:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

The Arbiter's Medal

Given what these people put up with, here is this idea:

Two gold Barnstars rotated until you have a ten pointed Barnstar. In that, you have a image of Lady Justice holding a pair of Scales in one hand, a sword on the other. To be awarded to Arbitrators who have shown outstanding ability. They often have a thankless job. This is my way of thanking these personnel. Martial Law 06:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• Which arbitrators are you referring to? --evrik 14:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

ALL of them. Excuse bug. I'm on a malfunctioning Satellite ISP. Hoping they fix it. Martial Law 18:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• How is this different from the proposal immeadiateky above this? --evrik 20:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

They act as judges, so a apropriate award would be needed, since a judge in court has a pix of Lady Justice or the State Seal behind him/her. Excuse the sig. I have a persistent bug that keeps me from logging in nearly 1/2 the time. The problem is with my ISP. Hoping they fix this real soon. Martial Law 18:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• How about providing a link to the group you are referring to? --evrik 21:43, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

See Court TV, the live trials for what the Seals look like. The Arbitration Committee often have a thankless job, thus is the reason for a similar type of award for these personnel. Martial Law 21:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The Computing Star

The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

• #1 - User:Lcarsdata's first version.
  #1 - User:Lcarsdata's first version.
• #2 - User:Michaelas10's first version.
  #2 - User:Michaelas10's first version.
• #3a - User:SteveBaker's first effort.
  #3a - User:SteveBaker's first effort.
• #3b - User:SteveBaker's second effort.
  #3b - User:SteveBaker's second effort.
• #4a - User:Lcarsdata's second version.
  #4a - User:Lcarsdata's second version.
• #4b - Cleaned-up version of User:Lcarsdata's second version.
  #4b - Cleaned-up version of User:Lcarsdata's second version.
• #5 - User:Lcarsdata's third version.
  #5 - User:Lcarsdata's third version.
• #7a - User:SteveBaker's third effort.
  #7a - User:SteveBaker's third effort.
• #7b - User:SteveBaker's fourth effort.
  #7b - User:SteveBaker's fourth effort.

The Computing Star is awarded to those who make outstanding contributions to computing/internet related articles. Also used for WikiProject Computing and all descendant WikiProjects. Introduced by Michaelas10 and designed by Lcarsdata. -- Michaelas10 18:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support Good idea, it would certainly help improve some of the many POV computing articles. Lcarsdata (Talk) 18:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support as a wikiproject award. Though I'm not thrilled with the image.--evrik 20:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
  • How do you suggest the image should be improved? -- Michaelas10 21:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
• Most of the other awards have the star as the focus. Maybe have an image of a laptop with the star on the screen? --evrik 21:32, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• I Support the award as a wikiProject award but I also dilike the image, maybe have some star-shaped motherboard looking piece with transistors and what not? --WillMak050389 21:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support the idea of a computing barnstar - Reject the image proposed. We can do much better. SteveBaker 22:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support Support the star but not the image. Æon ^{Insane Ward} 23:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support the idea, and evrik's image suggestion. --Gray Porpoise 23:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

New image proposed - This one is customized by me, looks pretty simple and focuses on the barnstar. -- Michaelas10 20:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• Reject The new image has all the same problems as the old one - you have a fairly photographic image of a barnstar stuck in front of a line drawing of a computer - and the two clash horribly. You need to keep the same style throughout the image or else it looks like Mary Poppins (film) in which live action was just crudely pasted over cartoon action. Either use a more photographic computer - or a more line-drawn barnstar. But I still think you should come up with something less obvious. SteveBaker 22:42, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

...time passes...

• How about this one? The text is the first dozen lines of the MediaWiki source code - the award is for bringing Wikipedia software into sharp focus...or something kitchey like that. SteveBaker 23:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• • I know it's not my WikiProject and I haven't got anything to do with the award, but I was just wondering how would the image look like w/o the "sharp focus". I believe it could look like the barnstar reflecting in the old-school computer monitor. Bravada, talk - 00:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• • • Well, so much for the deep symbolism that was such an integral part of the entire artistic gestalt.
    • (But, actually - yes - it's much nicer than my original idea - thanks for the insight)  :-) SteveBaker 02:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• I am glad to hear you think so :D More or less a propos, I am haunted by the "barnstar wheelcovers": another manufacturer who used a moderately barnstarish design is Simca. Check out the Simca 1300 or this Simca 1000 GL (there is some probability we might finally obtain CC BY 2.5 for the latter image). Bravada, talk - 02:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I have created this one which uses an idea from above. Lcarsdata (Talk) 17:49, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I have made another and moved all images to top gallery. Lcarsdata (Talk) 18:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I've uploaded my last version, this one is not a barnstar - it's an award, the Golden laptop award. I am aware that the most of other WikiProject awards are somehow based of barnstars, but there is no rule that indicates it. Michaelas10 19:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment cleaned up User:Lcarsdata's second version a bit. --WillMak050389 02:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Support Image 3b--Ed^{talk c E} 19:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

3b is too blurred. I think 3a will be better. Michaelas10 20:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• Right now, I have to go with 3b as I think the lettering in 3a is too distracting. The message is there even if the words are blurred. --WillMak050389 20:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support 3b 22:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
  • The original concept behind 3a was of 'bringing Computing & Wikipedia into sharp focus' - so the star shows sharp text in classic 'green screen' style where the award is - and blurry text where it isn't. For good measure, the text I chose is the first few lines of the MediaWiki sourcecode (index.php in the latest distro). OK - so it's heavy on the symbolism - but IMHO, it doesn't look too shabby. However, as was subsequently pointed out, (3a) almost looks like the star is reflected in an old-style green-screen monitor - and by making all of the text equally blurry (which is what 3b is), that's the effect you get. So, 3b is simply a barnstar reflected in a monitor that's showing the beginning of the Wiki source code. The text is intentionally out of focus now because we are focussing our attentions on a reflection - which makes the 'foreground' be out of focus - it adds a touch of realism. I actually prefer 3b - it's subtle. If you make all of the text sharp - it just looks cheesey and obvious - and I'm not interested in going that way.

• • If you really wanted to go the circuit board route, I think you'd need to do with some 3D modelling and make the star be somewhat in perspective with the components on it sticking up out of it. The star would need bevelled edges or something so it looks 'finished' - and you'd want to take care that none of the components were cut in half by the edges of the star. As it is now, it just looks like someone cut out a photo with scissors. SteveBaker 02:15, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support 3b. Herostratus 19:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support, in this order from greatest to least:

1. 5
2. 3b
3. 4b
4. 3a
5. 4a
6. 1
7. 2
8. 6

--Gray Porpoise 20:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot I had already voted. Still, this is the order of my support. --Gray Porpoise 18:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Your first vote was before all of the images we currently are considering were included - and also we were initially asking the question "Should there be a computing barnstar?". From where I'm sitting it looks like we unanimously agree that we want a barnstar - and (if you sort out the order of arrival of votes and images), I think we have a definite preference for 3b. Are we done? Do we have some sort of consensus? If so, I'll do whatever is necessary to move it onto the barnstar page. SteveBaker 01:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

No consensus yet, 2 people voted for #5 and 4 voted for #3b. Michaelas10 21:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support #5, although I already proposed 2 images, I believe it would fit perfectly in the WikiProject awards page. #3b fits better intro a programming award instead of award for general computing. Michaelas10 21:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

  But you could equally argue that #5 is all about hardware and that there needs to be a more general design to encompass the software parts of the art. I don't think you can come up with a single image that says it all - so no matter what you pick you'll have a bias one way or the other. #5 just seems so crudely done - there are white speckles all around the edges of the star and the lighting on the laptop is poor and doesn't match the star. SteveBaker 23:08, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

5 is showing a computer, which means all hardware, software and anything releating to computing. Also, the issues that you provided can be easily fixed with a single edit. Michaelas10 23:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

• • OK how about #7a and #7b for a compromise between #3b and #5? SteveBaker 00:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Well done, but they don't focus much on the barnstar, how about a front view on the intire laptop? Michaelas10 13:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
      • I like that these are a little more subtle. Just taking the obvious square-on view and sticking the obvious square-on barnstar onto it just looks so predictable. I want something a little more subtle and artistic. SteveBaker 11:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
• I like 4b for both hardware and software. --evrik 14:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I think 4b reminds only hardware, not software. And it doesn't have the structure of a barnstar, just the shape. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michaelas10 (talk • contribs)
    • I would strongly oppose 4a/b - they are just poor images. We need quality here. SteveBaker 11:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
• I like 7a and 4b. I think 4b would be improved with a transparent silouette/outline of a barnstar overlaid. - Jc37 15:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• Neither for nor against this. Jamesday 15:52, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
• Would someone mind culling this down to the three top choices? --evrik 01:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Final consensus building

There we go:

• #3b - User:SteveBaker's second effort.
  #3b - User:SteveBaker's second effort.
• #4b - Cleaned-up version of User:Lcarsdata's second version.
  #4b - Cleaned-up version of User:Lcarsdata's second version.
• #5 - User:Lcarsdata's third version.
  #5 - User:Lcarsdata's third version.
• #7a - User:SteveBaker's third effort.
  #7a - User:SteveBaker's third effort.

Michaelas10 19:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

• Number 4b --evrik 22:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support idea, 4's and 7's get my vote :) -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
• 4b going once .... --evrik 20:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Automotive Wikiproject Award

The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

File:Automotive Barnstar.png

Proposed Automotive Wikiproject Award - created by User:SteveBaker.

This is a concept for a barnstar an award for exemplary work in Automotive-related articles. Note that there was general support for a Railroad star, and the Automotive section of Wiki is comparable in size, support and need for recognition. SteveBaker 06:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support. The Auto project has grown quite large and considering the extensive scope of the project a custom barnstar is more than appropriate. Besdies, I like this particular proposal: It's easily recognizable as a barnstar, yet clearly hints at the subject matter of the project. Regards, Signature^brendel 06:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I do support the idea, but I guess we need to discuss the design on the Project page before submitting it. Thanks! Bravada, talk - 11:18, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

As a point of procedure: Does this proposal page cover approve the proposal to have a barnstar - or does it specifically approve the design of the graphic for the award? I assumed the former - but maybe it's also the latter. SteveBaker 14:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

• • The consensus is that each wikiproject can create its own award, and that anyone can place an award on the PUA page. However, to have an award listed on the wikiproject page, or to create a barnstar, it has to be vetted here first and that consensus or greta support must be achieved. --evrik 21:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• Great picture! I support the picture, but it is up to the project page to work it out and accept it. Discuss it there first. → JARED ^(t)  15:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support. I also love the picture. --Gray Porpoise 13:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support award and definitely SUPPORT the image. --WillMak050389 15:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• User:Leroyencyclopediabrown/Support Definitely support. --Ed^{talk c E} 17:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support Great image! --digital_me^{(Talk•Contribs)} 20:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
• Question Barnstar or wikiproject award? --evrik 18:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Which wikiproject? --evrik 20:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia:WikiProject Automobiles? --WillMak050389 20:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• I would go with WikiProject award, as i do not believe it encompasses enough to be a barnstar. --WillMak050389 03:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support The image is well designed, highly supported. -- Michaelas10 18:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Six votes is not a lot of support. --evrik 21:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Highly supported by me. -- Michaelas10 08:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Why is it that you require so many people in the discussion over other awards, such as the Islamic Barnstar Award, but only three votes were sufficient for selecting the Saint's Star Award, which is regarded as the Christian Wikiproject Award. Three people voted, and one was a vote of opposition.--JuanMuslim ^1m 14:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Simply stated, because the image already existed (Image:SaintBarnstar.PNG was created in December 2005, and the creation of the WikiProject Award was simply a reuse of an existing image. --evrik 15:03, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
    • That logic doesn't make the selection of the image any more fair. --JuanMuslim ^1m 17:37, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
      • The logic makes perfect sense. The image was accepted for one use. After the imnage had been accepted, two different WikiProjects adopted it as theirs. It's almost the opposite of what happened with the Islam Award. --evrik 18:37, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
        • Show me where the process allows for that exception. --JuanMuslim ^1m 20:28, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Update - The consensus both here and on the Automobiles project appears to be that we 100% agree that we need an automotive barnstar - and that almost everyone likes the idea of a star overlaid on a custom wheel - but that not everyone likes this particular custom wheel. Whilst I think we have the votes to justify making the image above be the automotive barnstar, it would be better to try some more designs based around the car wheel motif. I'll be working on that as time permits. SteveBaker 15:26, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Great to hear that! Thanks a lot Steve! I can't wait to see more of your creations! Bravada, talk - 15:30, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've posted some GIMPped (think 'photoshopped') versions of your Simca 1000 suggestion over on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#More_Barnstar_proposals - please continue the discussion over there. SteveBaker 11:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support: Sure, why not?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Final Consensus

File:AutomotiveBarnstar.png

Automotive Wikiproject Barnstar Award

After further discussion on the Automobile project page, I am please to announce that there is a clear consensus in favor of adopting this image as the Automobile project Barnstar to be awarded for all significant contributions of an automotive nature. For those who care, the image is of a Simca 1000 GL - the car was originally blue and the hubcap had an ALMOST barnstarish look that took a little GIMPing around to look as it does now. Thanks to Bravada for suggesting it. SteveBaker 20:06, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

• Fine by me, any objections? --evrik 20:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• (Someone edited my previous comment - crossing out 'Barnstar' and writing in 'Award'...No no no! Barnstar. Look at the hubcap. It's a barnstar. SteveBaker 20:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC))
• I.. still like the old image better as it fits better in the WikiProject awards page, but I guess this one's ok. Michaelas10 08:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
• That would have been me. Look at my comments in the other section. --evrik 01:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

How about an automotive Barnstar?

File:Automotive Barnstar.png

Proposed Automotive barnstar - created by User:SteveBaker.

I see the Railroad guys have petitioned for a special Barnstar award for their WikiProject - and it looks like it's getting some support. Not to be outdone, I thought I'd throw an image together and propose it.

If you have comments (like Support for example :-) you might take a stroll over to the proposals page: Wikipedia:Barnstar_and_award_proposals/New_Proposals#Automotive_Barnstar

Well, I like this one-a chrome wheel as autmotive barnstar. Regards, Signature^brendel 06:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Good idea! I have actually been looking for a suitable award like that once and ended up awarding somebody a Pentastar. For some reason I find a very appropriate travesty of the original barnstar concept. Unfortunately, the only pic of the pentastar is the one I insert below, though I think that it's roughness only adds to the effect. If somebody could get hold of a hood ornament of the 1980s Imperial Coupe photogrpahed head-on, I think it would be a perfect Pentastar! Regards, Bravada, talk - 11:16, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The Pentastar

Da Pentastar!

Erm, using logos in userspace might not be a good idea... --Interiot 11:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

But that's a photo, not the logo itself. Unless of course some anal-retentive copyright maniacs butt in, it is a free photo and can be used wherever we want. If anything, we are promoting it rather than disgracing it, besides the company has not been using it for some time now. Finally, the pentastar as such is nobody's property, it is just a generic graphic design. I would be even more for a graphic interpretation of it, perhaps having a barnstar-like Pentastar posing as a hood ornament. Somebody would have to do it (*sigh*), perhaps I will think of it later.

My problem with the "alloy barnstar" is that simply I am not quite enamoured with it graphically (with all due respect to Steve, who surely put a lot of effort in it). Compared to the railway barnstar, which you can find just above in the nominations page, it is not really that refined, and I do not feel too good about striving for a 20-inch gaudy Giovanni. I like the way the author of the railway barnstar propositions incorporated the barnstar design discreetly into a really nice photo, without making it too obvious. If we could have something like this, it would be great. Bravada, talk - 11:56, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't mean to be an anal-retentive copyright maniac as it were, but my understanding is that a picture of a logo is nearly equivalent to any other image of the logo (otherwise we'd constantly be getting around the fair-use issue by taking lots of photos of subway maps and famous artwork and television screens and such, and declaring them magically public-domain). This seems to be only loosely enforced on WIkipedia and even Commons, but if a photo is exclusively of a logo, it seems like it makes itself a more obvious target. (granted, there's this, but those are being discussed for deletion now). --Interiot 12:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for drawing my attention to that - I placed a warning on the deletion page! The problem is that this category, apart from artistic depictions of details of automobiles, also contains logos outright copied from the Internet or something, so no wonder it raised concerns. I believe that a photo of a badge or hood ornament does not infringe any rights of the automaker, as we do not use for commercial purposes or anyhow else that would inflict losses on the company (quite contrary to photographing a map, as the photograph might serve the same purpose of the map - you can figure out the rest). I guess you have all seen numerous photos of badges and signs on products, buildings etc. placed in print media articles more or less directly discussing the company or product. I doubt it whether they contact the trademark owner for permission everytime they publish a photo like that.

Anyway, this is a totally different issue. What I wanted to propose is some internal contest for the design of the Automotive Barnstar. I don't know whether many of us are gifted with artistic talents (I am not), so maybe we can post raw ideas here, and get some of the Wikipedia artists to submit their designs, both based on our suggestions and their own concepts. Bravada, talk - 13:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm quite 100% certain I don't want a company logo for the barnstar...no, no, no - hell no. There are two issues to decide here: Firstly - do we agree that we want there to be an automotive barnstar? Secondly - what graphic do we want? I don't here any objections to the first - but we're not happy with the second. Please don't spare my feelings - the chrome rim barnstar was a 5 minute job, I'm a 3D graphics geek and I can create stuff like that very easily. So - let's kick around some ideas for what it should look like and when we have some good ideas I'll be very happy to do the detailed design and rendering - and even knock up a few variations that we could vote on.

What I don't like about the railroad barnstar is that it's a photo with a barnstar embedded into it - none of the other barnstars out there are full rectangular photos and it looks out of place. I chose the chrome rim because it's cut out like the original barnstar whilst clearly saying "Automotive" by being recognisably part of a car. I think that's more appropriate than (say) a regular rusty star with a car stuck over the top of it. Barnstars generally seek to be somewhat witty and clever. SteveBaker 14:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

(indent reset) Well, I actually like the railway barnstar very much for what you mentioned - it is not an in-your-face image screaming "BARNSTAR!" with a blinking neon light over it and Elgar's "Pump & Circumstance" playing while Miller's and popcorn are being handed out. No, it is a discreet, elegant, refined picture of high quality by itself, with a small hint recognizable by those in the know. It will always come with loads and loads of info on what it is and there can be no mistake about that, so I guess the fact that it isn't the standard barnstar with Thomas the Tank Engine (who is a subject of a separate project btw) slapped on it is not a problem. If it doesn't fit in with the other barnstars, it says something of the quality of their quality.

What I would strive for is a barnstar that would exude the same qualities, being a refined, high-quality picture itself, with a recognizable reference to the scope of this WikiProject, and a barnstar well-composed into it. Apart from the Railway Barnstar, I can think of two current barnstars that have similar qualities - The Hollywood Barnstar and The Blueprint Barnstar (although the barnstars are pretty evident due to the theme employed). Coming close would be the Stargate Barnstar, although the idea might not be that inventive.

My vision is something quite like the Absolut Vodka ads (excuse me to indirectly promot alcohol here, ApolloBoy and Karrmann please don't click the link ;-) ), where the iconic bottle is cleverly composed into different backgrounds. People who know what it is about can really appreciate those little works of art.

On the other hand, nobody says we should absolutely have our award in the form of a barnstar. The fellow airborne WikiProject employs some very nifty WikiWings. Perhaps we can devise a more unique award like that?

Here's a list of items that one can compose a barnstar in, or can derive a new award from - I hope other will chip in:

• car's wheel (obvious)
• steering wheel
• hood ornament or a badge
• car keys or a keychain
• engine cover
• (your proposition)

^ The above was submitted by the notorious Bravada. Karrmann's comment starts below. Bravada, talk - 18:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm all for the Pentastar being our barnstar! Karrmann 16:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I mentioned the pentastar because the original barnstar is actually a penastar and the figure was used as a prominent car company logo, but I did not mean the ACTUAL Pentastar. Bravada, talk - 17:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

So - I tried the obvious car wheel and a few people don't like it...Karrmann suggests: steering wheel, hood ornament, car keys or engine cover. Engine covers don't really lend themselves to star-shaped things - they are square things - we need a round thing. A barnstar car key is certainly do-able. I like that idea. The trouble with it being a hood ornament is that we wouldn't know it was a hood ornament (as opposed to a shiney chrome barnstar) because a hood ornament is just a chrome thing with no other distinguishing features. Somehow I don't like the steering wheel suggestion. Hmmm - OK - so how about I try a car key? SteveBaker 18:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe you have to think out of the box. Try to fend off the negative feelings towards the railway barnstar and rectangular shapes - all graphic files are rectangular after all. We do not really have to make our barnstar look like all other barnstars - it's rather them that should catch up with our great design :D If the resulting design won't pass as a barnstar, why not call it something else? We might use the barnstar theme to signify that it belongs to the "Wikipedia awards" family, or not, like in the case of Wikiwings. A hood ornament can be portrayed so that the fact that it is standing on a car's bonnet is evident. Bravada, talk - 18:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

PS. How would you feel about inviting Wikipedia artists from outside of the Project to propose some more designs? Honestly, if you want to be the author of the Project's award, I believe you have the full right to it, given your contributions.

File:Barnkey.png

A barnkey.

Honestly, I really don't feel any need to be the person who paints the award for the sake of fame and fortune! If anyone else wants to contribute - I'm all for that. But on the offchance that nobody does...I'm here to help. I do feel it's important for our barnstar to fit in harmoniously with all of the others - and whilst I like the railway star image a lot, I don't think it fits the bill for that reason. However, this isn't about their star - it's about ours. SteveBaker 19:44, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm okay with the key, but have to say I liked the wheel quite a bit better. The wheel was easier to recognize as barnstar (it's round). Regards, Signature^brendel 19:53, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah - I agree - but now we have opinions on both sides. I see a vote coming on - so lets make sure we have a bunch of other suggestions before we go any further. SteveBaker 20:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Just wanted to say that the barnkey is great! My only concern would be that perhaps not everybody would recognize it instantly as a car key. Regarding Gerd's concerns - have you ever seen a barnstar used in Wikipedia without an appropriate and obvious description?

As I see no oposition to this idea, I will try to get some WikiPedia artists to join the effort and provide more choices. Regards, Bravada, talk - 20:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely - let's get some more designs. SteveBaker 03:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Bravada, I know all Barnstars are clearly labeled, but for esthetic purposes it is still nice if they're easily recognizable. As I said I'm fine with the key too, but liked the wheel better-In this case I'll make things easier and would, if there is a vote, cast my vote in favor of either one. Signature^brendel 23:59, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, my sense of esthethics clearly differs, as for me it is nice that e.g. the railway barnstar is not that strikingly recognizable - I like understatement. That said, today browsing through an old seventies car catalogue, one thing struck me - the Autobianchi Primula Coupé appears to have been available with a wheel pattern strikingly resembling a 6-spoke version of our Wikipedia Barnstar! I have found the pic online (low quality, but that's what I have) - see for yourselves: [1]. Bravada, talk - 02:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Über Geschmack läßt sich streiten! (One could argue endlessly over taste) Signature^brendel 03:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The Geo Storm also has wheels that look like they are stars. Karrmann 02:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I just like the wheel first proposed, but as we all have different tastes I am also ready to vote for other proposals-the key is fine with me too. I do want to say, however, that I somehow cannot help myself but be fond of the idea of using a wheel as a barn star-I don't know, but I just like that idea. Regards, Signature^brendel 03:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The wheel I originally proposed is an actual car wheel - it was on sale on eBay. I just emailed the owner and asked if I could use the photo (Yes, I could) - then I touched up the highlights and emphasised the grooves along the arms of the star to make it look more like a barnstar. There are dozens and dozens of wheel patterns with five armed stars out there though. I like the idea of a more subtle star that's not immediately obvious. That's what I was trying for with the key. At first you see a car key - and it's only a moment or two later that you see the embossed barnstar on the bow. It's a standard GM car key - from an era just before everyone started cramming electronics and other junk into big plastic lumps. I can put this treatment onto just about any key you guys could come up with - I did some Porshe and RollsRoyce keys first - but those actually look even more plain than the GM key I finally settled on. But if you have a better key to choose from - I'm game to add the barnstar to it. SteveBaker 03:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay seems like we settled on a key-barnstar design (that may not be my first choise, but its fine with me). Anyways, the GM key seems allright but just to throw an idea out there-how about a Mercedes-Benz key (w/o plastic) with the MB symbol revised to look like a bartnstar. I now I want to avoid confusion I am not stating that the MB symbol should serve as the Barnstar, the symbol should be photoshopped to take on a more abstract form. This would be an interesting play on the car logo idea. Anyway, just some food for though. Regards, Signature^brendel 05:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

(reset indent again) I don't think we "settled on" anything yet - is there any rush? I think we might wait, perhaps some other people will come with other propositions, or Steve will have yet another idea. I have asked some Wikipedia artists, who designed nice barnstars before, whether they would like to submit their propositions, so I suggest we would wait for them.

As concerns the car key, now that you told me it's a GM key I can see the GM logo peeking from behind more and more :D I have no idea how the pre-electronics Mercedes key looks like, but perhaps if somebody could find an image, it would be good to try that too. Finally, I think the wheel itself is a good idea, especially not a sole rim, but a whole wheel with a tire sitting in a wheelwell. I absolutely loathe shiny Pimp-My-Ride Giovannis, but a nice-looking wheel would absolutely do the trick for me. I invite you once again to take a look at the Primula - totally accidentally, Autbianchi designers managed to incorporate the barnstar theme in a very good way! Bravada, talk - 12:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah - now you come to mention it - it does look like a ghost of the original GM logo is still there. I promise to fix that if we decide we want that image - but I don't plan to spend more time on it until/unless we do because it's already good enough to give you the idea. So far, I hear Gerdbrendel expressing a preference for the wheel - but not objecting to the key. I prefer the wheel - but could live with the key if there was a strong majority for it. I think Bravada likes the key - but so far is the only person who has actually said so. On the other hand, on the Wikipedia:Barnstar_and_award_proposals/New_Proposals#Automotive_Barnstar page, there are another three people (Jared, Gray Porpoise and Digital me) who said they love the wheel graphic. So I'd say it was pretty strongly in favor of the wheel right now. We need more people contributing artwork - or at least proposing ideas that I could turn into artwork for you. SteveBaker 22:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I am pestering a number of graphic artists for contributions now, so hopefully we might have more choice. Frankly speaking, I like the CONCEPT of the wheel more, I just hate the gaudy Giovanni rim :D (not your artwork, but the base). Concerning ideas - I am still under the impression how the Autobianchi Primula wheels resemble our barnstar pattern - see here [2] and here [3]. Unfortunately, I haven't got hold of any photos of these in higher resolution (not to mention free), and my puny attempts to recreate this design ended up so that I am even more ashamed of my lack of PhotoShop talent. But if you had some spare time, perhaps you might give it a try - I would start with any five- or six-spoke rim with a reasonably thick tire on it. I tried to resize the central element of the barnstar (how do you call it?) to make it serve as a central wheelcover and it worked, it was making it all fit into an image of a wheel in a wheelwell where I had to admit defeat. Would be great if you could do that! Bravada, talk - 22:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

OKay, Danke Bravada-Ferien ist das richtige Wort ;-). Okay I still like the wheels but I see your point they are a but pimpy-I woudln't put them on my car either but they just male such a perfect barn star. Anyways-you're right what's the hurry. Regards, Signature^brendel 17:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

More Barnstar proposals

So far, we have:

• File:Barnkey.png
• File:Automotive Barnstar.png

But how about...

• File:ProposedAutomotiveBarnstar1.png
• File:AutomotiveBarnstar2.png
• File:AutomotiveBarnstar.png
• File:AutomotiveBarnstar4.png

For those who wanted a 'wheel' design for the Automotive barnstar - but not the chrome wheel I did before, here is a suitably doctored Simca1000 wheel following a suggestion from Bravada over on the Wikipedia:Barnstar_and_award_proposals/New_Proposals page. I'm not sure which of the cropped designs looks best. The one at the extreme left is a bit too subtle IMHO - at normal barnstar sizes it's really not obvious that it's a barnstar at all. I think the one that's second from the right is probably the best mix of "This is a Barnstar" and "This isn't obviously a barnstar until you look carefully". SteveBaker 11:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Today on GIMP My Ride.... :D You have even repainted the Simca - I like the color much more than the blue, actually! More seriously, these are really good! The middle two show what it's all about without compromising the quality! The only problem will be that nobody will believe anything has been modified here - your mods are immaculate! Bravada, talk - 11:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

<blush> Well, the blue didn't tone in with the yellowish rims - so I retinted the car. Also the resolution of the original image was poor and had been saved with a very high level of JPEG compression - so I had to smooth out the paint quite a lot so we could blow it up to a reasonable size. I juiced up the chrome a little too. Actually adding the highlights to turn the spokes on the hubcaps into stars was the easy part! I left-right mirrored it because people 'buy' highlights better when the light appears to come from above and to the right than they do when it's above and to the left...dunno why that is - it's a subtle perceptual 'kink' in our brains...but it somehow made the faked star look more convincing.

The trouble is that now I can't look at a car without seeing bloody barnstars!

• The original
  The original
• Argh! Barnstars!
  Argh! Barnstars!
• File:ProposedAutomotiveBarnstar6.png
• <giggle>
  <giggle>

I am not sure whether I want a Toyota Barnstar to be our WikiProject Award, but this is just great! I was wondering whether we could find a free high-res pic of a profile shot of a car with a similar rim/wheelcover pattern - it would be an even better base for such an award! I'll let you know if I find something, and I guess we should all now browse the Commons and perhaps also Flickr :D Bravada, talk - 12:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

No - I don't like the Toyota either. We could search wheel photos forever and hack dozens of them into barnstars - but it's not very productive. I personally like the Simca - it's understated. I don't think a modern car fits the bill at all, the wheels are just too boring. Something older is more to my taste - but then I am restoring a 1963 Mini and a 1972 VW Bug - so the Simca is right in the ballpark for my tastes. I looked at things like Model T Ford wheels - you could stick a barnstar into one of those fairly easily - but close-up, it looks like a cart-wheel and it just doesn't scream "CAR!" at you like the Simca wheel does.

But there must be some actual artists out there who could do us a good job...it would be nice to see some contributions from other people. SteveBaker 12:49, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually I am all for the Simca Barnstar (or perhaps 1000 GL Barnstar?), I was just worried about more universal support :D But for now, there are two support votes and opposition :D As concerns other artists, I have pestered a number of people who I have seen doing really good graphic design stuff on WP, and by now I have only received either no answer or a negative one (including being informed that a person doesn't like cars!). I have myself made an attempt on the Simca, and the catastrophic results convinced me that I am not at all skilled in this area :D Bravada, talk - 13:01, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The Simca wheel is the best suggestion so far. It needs a better version of course. Does it have to be a star? The Spirit of Ecstasy nest to a Mercedes star is my suggestion. Rolls Royce is traditionally considered automotive perfection. --Dahlis 22:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

OK - I'm up for criticism. You say the Simca star "needs a better version" - could you tell me what you don't like about it - maybe I can fix up whatever issues you have with it.

Does it have to be a star? Well, yes and no. Each project (and indeed, anyone who feels like it) can award any damned thing they like to whomever they like for whatever they like...and people do. But the five pointed 'barnstar' is a long-standing Wikipedia tradition and every single award on the WP:Barnstar page is a star. Some effort goes into making them look nice and to having them fit into the overall 'theme'. So whilst you - and this project - can award any darned thing it likes - what I would like to see is an automotive barnstar...and that has to be a star.

As for Nelly in her nighty and a Mercedes star - we have to be reasonably careful not to infringe on trademark and copyrights for these things - which IMHO rules both of those out no matter what. There are no fair use provisions that would apply here. SteveBaker 01:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I do like the Simca wheels-but think it would be better to have a picture that is not at an angle. As for the cooperative symbols-this can easily erupt into a POV war (Tell a BMW driver that his car is not "perfection" and explain why only an MB star and Nelly in her nighty are featured-we should abstain from using any type of coperate logo-the barnstar should be neutral. Regards, Signature^brendel 02:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I doubt that the NPOV rules apply to user pages - which is the only place where Barnstars appear - but at any event, we agree that corporate logos would be a bad idea. I can look for a Simca 1000GT photo taken from square-on - but I thought the idea here was to make the star less 'in your face' and more subtly hidden in the photo. A three quarter view does a better job of that IMHO. SteveBaker 03:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Steve on both accounts. Just a sidenote - this image (it's a Simca 1000 GL not GT btw, the "luxury" version, the "sporty" version was Rallye) is the only free one I have seen of a Simca 1000 with those wheelcovers, so I guess there aren't too many of them with this pattern. Simca 1301s seem, however, to have been getting those standard, and perhaps some 1501s. Bravada, talk - 19:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the simca star would look better in a picture that is not in an angle. I do like that fact that the star is a bit less "in your face". But i think a head on photo would look better . --Dahlis 15:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I have to take back my words - I must've been having some delusions. Quite many Simcas were actually fitted with those wheelcovers. Examples: [4], [5], [6]. Btw, all the pics from Garage de l'Est are now fully available for use in Wikipedia again, I have cleared it out with Mr. Stedehouder and he agrees for everybody to use it for any purpose, which includes us and uploading it to the Commons. An example how to do that with all the appropriate tags and stuff: [:commons:Image:1964 Simca 1500.jpg]. I hope you will find one of these images more befitting for the Silver Wheelcover Award :D Bravada, talk - 18:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, those photos are certainly more square-on - but they don't have that nice cream-coloured rim (which makes the car look very 1950's) and the hubcaps aren't so shiney. I'll see what I can do with them tonight. I might try sticking one of those wheels into the existing image so it looks like the steering wheel has been turned to make the wheel face the camera. Dunno...I'll see what happens when I have them in GIMP and can play around a bit. SteveBaker 18:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I played around a bit with the three 'more square on' Simca images and nothing I came up with really pleased me in any way worth showing - the images just didn't jump out of the screen at me and scream "AWARD". They just kinda sat there and look like a boring old car wheel. If anyone else can do a good job with them - that would be a good thing. But right now, I'm happier with the more diagonal view of the red car with the cream wheel. SteveBaker 04:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

One note

Since y'all are developing this award here instead of on the Award Proposal page I just wanted to bring a couple of things to your attention. The consensus on the WikiProject Awards (which this appears to be) is that only things listed on the Barnstar page are called Barnstars. Everything else is called an award or a star. Just an FYI. If you're making a topical barnstar for automotive related issues, I would suggest moving this debate to the proposal page. Finally, most of the awards listed on the two aformentioned pages tend to focus on the star image. --evrik 02:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, so does Steve's "Simca Barnstar". Some of the Project "stars" (actually only one of the project awards is not called a star, and some are still called Barnstars) look like travestations (travesties?) of the original barnstars, but some simply incorporate the star theme in this way or another, like the Military history WikiProject Award or Indigenous American Star. I think Steve's design is right on spot with regard to that. That said, if we aren't supposed to call it a "barnstar", I believe it could be even more appropriately referred to as "Silver Wheelcover"! Bravada, talk - 03:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I started the discussion over on the barnstar page - and was told to move the discussion here! My impression is that a discussion of which image we want should happen here first - and when we have consensus, it should go over to the Barnstar talk page to get a final "OK" from the community at large. Now, as to whether the star images we've been looking at "count" as barnstars is a different matter. Most of the barnstars in current use are pretty much square-on obvious images of the barnstar - but the railroad proposal isn't. It's much more subtle...and a vast majority of people here like that. So the idea of having the classic barnstar appearing embedded into another image is an up-coming thing. Should we call that a barnstar? Hell yes! We've gone to a lot of trouble to incorporate the classic star image into our award. Life would have been a lot easier if I hadn't had to do that! The fact that it's recognisably a barnstar - to people outside of the automotive group - is very important to me - and the fact that it will ultimately appear in the list of standard awards on the barnstar page is also very important. Whether the participants at the barnstar talk page will agree is unknown (although they seem to like the railroad star and nobody complained about my chrome wheel star). However, I'm 100% sure that this group doesn't want something as boring as "The standard brown star with a car stuck in front of it". So - let's let the process work itself out. Let's come to a consensus here - then move it to barnstar talk - and get a vote on it there. If we fail at either of those stages, we'll find some more images and go around again. SteveBaker 17:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• So...it's all gone quiet. No more contributions for an Automotive Barnstar? Should we move to a vote? SteveBaker 01:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

• I like the key and the third of the tire photos, as well. The chrome Barnstar looks interesting... could you do a version that makes it "transparent"? (Meaning clearing the "spaces" between the circle and the spokes of the star) and give it a shadow : ) - Jc37 15:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• • I did try removing the black areas between the spokes - but it somehow didn't look like a car wheel afterwards. It looked more like a 'Sheriff' badge from an old-style cowboy movie. I like the third of the 'tire' photos too. Sadly, the impetus has gone out of the discussion. We really need some more artists to participate. Once I find something I really like, I find it hard to get the energy to make anything else! SteveBaker 16:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• • • Nod, I agree. It does look like a sheriff's badge. Perhaps it needs some lugnuts : ) - Jc37 16:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• • • • Not that this makes a good Barnstar - but I found this bumper sticker you guys might like: File:Barnstar-car.png SteveBaker 20:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)