Wiki143 talk:Miscellany for deletion/User:Witkacy/Black Book

Xaa's Comments, Moved Here for Clarity of the Vote

**this voting should be deleted (it's an "anti-Witkacy campaign")
- see [1], the consensus was Userfy
--Witkacy 10:14, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

• Comment: I respectfully disagree. I have read this page carefully. The consensus was Delete, with twenty votes. Userfy was 10 votes. Yet, the page was not deleted, it was Userfied. Userfying something when the consensus is to delete does not strike me as following the intent of Wikipedia. Also, I believe that your posting this VfD page up for Speedy Deletion is an incorrect use of the existing VfD system, which is already the subject of a possible reform. VfD pages do not in any way meet the criteria for speedy deletion. If you disagree with this, you should post your disagreements on the page regarding Deletion Policy Reform. Lastly, this is not an "Anti-Wiktacy Campaign." Your page is makes direct accusations of racism of specific and named Wikipedians, and as such could be seen as potentially libelous. It is my carefully considered opinion that you should reconsider your position on this issue. If you feel that the information is valid and worth preserving, you should preserve it on a personal website, and link to it from your user pages. However, my vote remains unchanged, as it is my carefully considered opinion that your page does not represent material that should be retained on Wikipedia, even on a user page.
      I understand that you disagree, and I respect your right to disagree. I respect your concern that some Wikipedians may be biased against you because of polish ancestry. I would like to point out for your consideration, however, that nobody knows one's ancestry here until you post about it. For example, no one knows whether I am white, black or yellow until I post that I am. If you are truly offended by even the slightest hint of anti-polish bias, the simplest defense against it is to get a new user-name. Even in the most broad-minded of online forums, posting that one is black or yellow or white or American or British or Canadian or really giving yourself ANY kind of label is going to invite responses from those who are biased against the labels you have given yourself. Having read each and every citation on your page, I find it highly debatable whether anyone has, in fact, posted racially motivated comments against you. There are some responses that are questionable and one that I do consider racist, but given the light of a "heat of the moment" exchange and given the public label you apply to yourself, it seems to me to be a highly debatable situation. Once one decides to label oneself, one must deal with the ordinary responses that label may draw, both positive and negative. The alternative is that one does not post one's racial/national/sexual/gender/age/etc identity online and make a target of it. I realize again that this is not going to be something you agree with. Certainly if I was being attacked for being a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant American and a Republican, I would find it highly annoying. But, I would be adult enough to recognize that the only reason people identified me as being a WASP and/or a Republican is that I publicly labeled myself as one - in essence, I am hanging up a target for people to shoot at should they find any of the labels I identify myself with offensive. I could just as easily have identified myself as an African American Muslim Socialist, or even a Sasquatch with a Computer and an Internet Connection. I could even have identified myself as being Polish American, and then sit here and shadow-box with you regarding whether or not any of it was racist at all. I respectfully request that you reconsider your opinion, cease submitting this page for speedy deletion, and either allow the VfD process to proceed normally or suggest options for it's reform.
  Xaa 17:48, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

A long thread about WP:NPA and other policy violations

*Keep I'm against censorship in User namespace.
 Grue  20:05, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

• • Comment Then you should express your opinion on the page that is specifically dedicated to reforming the deletion procedure, instead. =) Under the current policy, you are not permitted to have personal attacks on your user space. =) Xaa 20:18, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Xaa do you already read the introduction? " This page is intended as an archive of anti-Polish behaviour on various WP pages. Many Wikipedians assume bad faith solely because the wikipedians they oppose are Polish. It is commonly accepted that Poles are nationalists, anti-Semites or simply morons. Such views are promoted by numerous people here, whether conscient or not. In the past this behaviour has led to the creation of meta:How to deal with Poles. Since it's persists, the Polish community joined in the Polish Wikipedians' notice board project has decided to take steps necessary to defend their good name and fight such views by asking all those who promote them to support their statements with facts, diffs and links. We established this page in order to be able to communicate with the offending users without having to resort to WP:RfC, WP:ArbCom or any other serious steps in dispute resolution. This page is intended as a tool and an archive of such anti-Polish bias. It is by no means an attack page directed at any single user or a group. It is not a personal attack. It should not be treated as such - it is simply a collection of quotes from various talk/discussion pages. We are not responsible for the creation of those quotes, we simply archive them here. We are all friends here after all and in our oppinion it is always better to try to reach aggreement before we start the quarrels on who is guilty and why. If you find your name here, feel free to explain the reasons for your statement, demand our apology for erroneus interpretation of your statements - or apologise yourself.--Witkacy 20:38, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
      • Comment Yes, I did read the page. And, having read it, I come to the following conclusion: You are maintaining a page that accuses several Wikipedians by name of being racist. You are deleting their responses to these accusations, which means they have no ability to defend themselves, and those responses that you have not deleted have not been deemed by you to be sufficient for you to remove the listing and clear their name. By the opening statement on the page (which you have kindly re-posted, above), the only response you are willing to accept is an apology, and it is clear you absolutely and unequivocably refuse to accept anything else other than an abject apology. It is, in essence, a kangaroo court, because people you post on that page are presumed guilty, they are not allowed to defend themselves, they are only allowed to acknowledge their guilt and apologize, and you are publishing this list as a publicly posted blacklist of being Wikipedians who must be shunned for their alledged racism. And, lastly, where I live, a blacklist like this is actually *illegal*. And, I would like to point out that on the talk page for this page, Jimbo Wales himself reccommended you delete this page. You may have heard of him - he's actually in charge of this entire Wiki project, and his opinion should count at least a little because of that. ;-) I am sorry, but yes, I have read the page, and I cannot support your position on this issue. =) Xaa 22:35, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Comment. Witkacy, give me a break, this is utter nonsense. This is just like saying "The following is not intended as a personal attack: You bl**dy m***erf****er!" Apart from that, Witkacy just accused me of being anti-Polish or something for posting to my user page in English, and, for no apparent reason, of being volksdeutsch, which seems to be the strongest insult in his book... [2] I'm trying hard to treat him seriously, but keeps getting harder all the time. --Thorsten1 22:59, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

(1) This stuff is cut and pasted (or just moved) from the "Polish Wikipedians' Black Book" page. It was not written by User:Witkacy, whom it obviously pleases to maintain this crap. That said, the assertion that many Wikipedians assume bad faith because the WPans they oppose are Polish is (a) an assumption of bad faith itself and (b) an oblique threat (watch out or we'll list you here!) against all Wikipedians who might dare to disagree with Polish Wikipedians who happened to think this "project" was a good idea. By using mealymouthed weasel wording ("many Wikipedians", "it is commonly accepted", "numerous people", etc. ad nauseum), the proponents of this "project" attempted to absolve themselves of any wrongdoing by purposely offending other Wikipedians.

(2) Half of what's listed on the page presently is only "anti-Polish" if bad faith is presumed...in other words, the supposition that everyone is anti-Polish is the "given", and anything Witkacy doesn't like is "proof".

(3)The "How to deal with Poles" in meta was written by a Pole!!!

(4)I have demanded an apology for Witkacy's (and others', apparently) misinterpretation of my statement, as the page recommends, but my demand was deleted, and thus far no rationale has been forthcoming. It is increasingly obvious that I'm listed there because of the fact that Witkacy is on a crusade against me for nominating Anti-Polonism for deletion. (That article, incidentally, is an even bigger mess of original research and POV-pushing than it was when I nominated it...but of more interest here, perhaps, is the fact that Witkacy was so quick to remove my VfD tag (and did so so frequently), that it messed up my {{subst|s for 15 minutes. Nominating this page for VfD itself is just more in the same vein. See Thorsten1's comments above, accompanying his "keep" vote. Tomer ^TALK 22:11, August 5, 2005 (UTC)